Unexplained Passing.....Any Thoughts??

[pentacle_400]

Not sure where to put this, but my ball python passed away suddenly last Thursday. After a slow and forth with the vet and some wait, he went in for a necropsy yesterday. Vet called just now to inform me the gross necropsy yielded no obvious cause of death. Everything seemed heathly. She isn't sure any samples she took will be viable enough for any testing, but will be calling labs on Tuesday (December 26th) to see if they think it's worth pursuing. I'm at such a loss right now. His history didn't show too many signs of anything. We got him from a pet store in 2012 and about a month into having him he got a respiratory infection. We assumed it was the dust from the substrate, so we changed that, gave him the shots and he seemed totally fine with no recurrence. Only odd signs he's ever had were that he refused to eat anything except for mice and they had to be super warm or he'd either not eat them, or strike them and miss repeatedly. He refused to eat on numerous occasions, which I had read was typical of a ball python to be picky and not always eat, so we just rolled with it. He was not as big as we've seen most 5 year old bps to be either. He rarely shed completely even with water and humidity. Only had sheds come off after a good soak. Last bad shed he had we put him into the bath and it got weird. As soon as he hit the water he started flailing and rolling as if he was panicked and couldn't right himself. Once I yanked him out of the water he was fine. His eye cap on one eye was still on and we had to gently peel it off with no real resistance. Oddly, though, his eye still looked funny/cloudy-ish with the eye cap off. The night before he passed he seemed fine and was wandering around his cage. Next day, feeding day, I go to turn everyone's lights on and find he had passed just mere hours before (he was still limp, except for his lower 1/4.) I instantly blamed myself for not seeing that anything was wrong. I should have taken him the next day after he did that weird thing in the bath. I just assumed he was freaked out by the big tub of water he was just put in as he hadn't been in a bath in a while. Well, I did research on everything, then began panicking that he had ibd. He never stargazed, but always had a slight tremor when he would do the snake "look around" thing they do when they lift their heads. Which he only had the tremor when he'd look around, never with normal squiggling. I just assumed it was normal or a quirk. He never had mouth rot, no second ri, didn't corkscrew, no huge red flag of any kind. But I feel if I had put all of those tiny issues together I would have suspected something sooner and possibly saved him. My vet said visually he appeared healthy, even a good amount of muscle and fat considering he didn't always eat. Organs checked out, and no tumors or anything visible. Well, she also believes it was something like being septic or bacterial or something unseen that would require a test of some sort. But also she thinks if it was something like that that it would've still taken him too fast to be caught in time. I worry they won't be able to get anything off of the samples after over 10 days since death, but the snake was kept refrigerated, so there's potential hope. I guess my question is, has this happened to anyone else? Does anyone have any guesses as to what happened to him? If I dropped the ball on him somehow, I don't want to do this to any of my other babies. (Which, for the record, they all went in for a vet visit this Monday to be sure they all looked good. I will also get fecals for them all in the coming weeks.) I don't want this to be my fault, but how else can I exaplain a seemingly healthy snake dying after only 5-6 years of life? Any similar stories, or theories to his death, or even critiques are very much appreciated!!

[zina10]

First of all, I'm very sorry for your loss.

And sometimes, there just isn't one good explanation.

However, the fact that he was a bad eater and also didn't shed good ever tells me it may just be husbandry related.
Many snakes can survive errors in husbandry, even eat and grow. But they live on despite these errors, not because of them.
And some just never thrive.

Can you tell us how he was housed ? What kind of enclosure, the size of it ? Pictures would help. How were the temperatures? How did you check, control those temperatures? How did you control humidity? Did he have privacy, hides?

It sounds to me like he was probably a typical petstore snake. Stressed for many reasons. Which lowers the immune systems ability to fight off disease. Since he didn't get sick until a month after you bought him, I do not think he caught it at the store, unless he had slight symptoms before you noticed them. That also makes me wonder if perhaps there was something "off" with your husbandry.
It could have started him on being a snake that just never did real well, never really thrived all that great. One that stayed susceptible to illness and disease.

I do not believe he had IBD UNLESS you may have added a infected animal to your collection not to long ago. That disease kills BP's pretty quick, it doesn't take 4 years.
The slight tremor when they hold themselves straight up is normal. Its from the strain of holding their body up. If it was just a slight tremor and only then...that is normal.

Honestly, it sounds to me like he wasn't the healthiest to begin with and eventually his body just shut down, possibly due to the stress of the bath, the temperatures, or the bad shed. The eye being cloudy AFTER removing the eye cap could be due to accidentally damaging it.

Of course it could also be that he wasn't the healthiest and eventually died despite GREAT husbandry. But the refusal to eat and the problems with shedding point to husbandry not being ideal. Even if that did not cause his death.

[Sonny1318]

Sorry you lost an animal, but with what you said about sheds, I question your husbandry. And the tub thing sounds like the water was too hot, it shouldn’t of been warmer then low eighties. Do you have a temp gun? I would definitely look into your humidity, they should always be having good sheds. The eyecap issue didn’t sound very good either, I might of missed something, but that’s a good start.

[Godzilla78]

Kind of not important, but bath water should be lukewarm. I put my snake in a bath once and seemed to really enjoy it, natural swimmers, it was elegant the way she whipped her body to propel.


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[zina10]

The ones I had to give a good soak to (rescues, way back) I preferred to do it in a tub. Like a plastic tub, not the bath tub.
Water luke warm (check, what can feel luke warm to us, can be kind of high to them)
Water level not so high that they literally have to swim. Just high enough to cover their body. I prefer to put a towel in there, something they can rest on and slither through.

While snakes can swim well, usually, it can still be stressful to one to suddenly be submerged in water. Especially if that snake is not the healthiest to begin with and the temps are not quite right.

[Momokahn]

First and foremost sorry to hear of your loss.

You may never find an answer to why your snake died but your story reveals you were an excellent keeper of your pet. You are to commended.

Just like any animal species, it's short life may have been determined at birth. Humans are born with afflictions that can usually be identified and sometimes treated. With snakes, sometimes it is just tough to figure out if an ailment is afflicting them and once determined was it caught in time and can it be treated.

I lost my first Burmese Python some 30 years ago at an early age (about 5 years old also). No signs of sickness at all. I had it examined at Kansas State University Veterinary Scool with no definitive conclusion.

Sometimes it just happens. Be proud of your dedication you provided to your snake. It couldn't have asked for a better owner.

[pentacle_400]

Well, he's the only one of my 4 snakes to have the shedding issue and all temps are checked with a temp gun, water is provided in one of those stone corner bowls, bedding varies between pine shavings and paper towels, which ever I have the most of at the time. Cage was a 30 gallon. He was fed outside of cage to avoid eating any subrate. Vet also mentioned parasites as a potential cause but never took a fecal to my knowledge. Bath water was also always checked with temp gun too. He didn't start out as a bad eater either, nor did he totally have shed issues in the beginning (He did have a handful of good sheds). We did move from Alabma to West Virginia and shortly before that is when he began to show signs of being picky (wouldn't eat rats and mice had to be white. Wouldn't touch a colored mouse for some reason.) Could the move, roughly a year and half into owning him, have effected him in some way? I don't have a humidity gauge of any kind at the moment, but it is notably humid in the room and they do get misted. It's just baffling that she didn't see anything. I mean if it was husbandry related, wouldn't his body have shown visible signs of some kind of stress or immune problems? Like if he was too hot or cold or dehydrated, wouldn't his organs/body have been deformed/shown some signs or this?? I mean, maybe not, I'm no vet or expert, but I would think something would have been visible.

[zina10]

I would like to point out that errors in husbandry does NOT equal a bad owner. Or one that isn't dedicated.

Many people do not realize that husbandry isn't ideal, because their animals do fine and they don't know better. Or they been told wrong.

Sometimes it just depends on the animal. Some do ok with less then perfect, others do not.

If you have a snake that ALWAYS has rough sheds and NEVER eats really well, husbandry is simply the first thing to double check.

If husbandry was spot on, and no new animals were brought in recently and there were no other obvious symptoms of URI or neurological, then it may have simply been an animal that was never really healthy, and it is just one of those things..

The fact that you seek answers, through a necropsy as well as here on this forum, shows that you are a caring and dedicated owner. We all continue to learn, reaching out is the first step. If you are willing to look into possibly husbandry related issues, post your setup, temps, and how you control and check it all.

Again, sorry for your loss, you had that baby for a while and its always difficult when they pass away, even more so when one doesn't know "why"..


edited to say, I wrote and posted before seeing the last update..

[pentacle_400]

Oh and to comment on the depth of the water, no it was not super deep, it was at the level I normally would use for him. I just meant "big tub" as in the size of the bath tub compared to any others we've had in the past and also in comparison to the water dish he had. I had made too full in the past when we first got him (he was our first snake) so I knew he was not a fan of deep water. And I have put either a log or my hand to rest on in the past, but the second he went into the water he freaked so much that I held him by his upper half, but he still was panicking. Again, I do check the temps, so I'm certain it was not too hot.

[pentacle_400]

Speaking of husbandry, while I do use a temp gun, I wonder, does anyone recommend a reliable in tank temp/humidity gauge? When we first got him 5 years ago we had those like $5-10 stick on gauges for humidity and temps, but it stopped working properly, so I switched to a gun as I found it more accurate. Perhaps there's one for in the tanks that lasts longer and maybe provide a very accurate reading like the gun does. I have just never trusted buying one that would last, so I never got any more, but maybe having a reliable one in their tanks constantly will provide a better idea of their tank status on a more consistant basis.