New ball python over a year old and only 166 grams!

[cchardwick]

I just picked up a couple ball pythons from Morphmarket from a big breeder who has sold over 1,000 snakes on that site. The pair was supposed to be over a year old and I didn't think the weights were accurate. Just unboxed them today and sure enough the male is only 166 grams!! I have hatchlings that are only two months old that weigh twice that. I'm guessing that they just didn't feed them or maybe a rat pup once a month? I was pretty shocked to see how light they were, it was like opening up an empty box, I thought maybe they forgot to put the snakes in there LOL.

I feed pretty heavy, at one year old most of my snakes are up to about 800 grams and usually at least 1200 grams after two years. I've had one snake this light (a normal that I got for free) and with heavy feeding she grew like a rocket and made up for it in no time so I'm not that worried about it, just thought I'd share my experience with this big breeder... (not going to mention any names).

[Craiga 01453]

That's a tiny little yearling! And I thought Tyson was small since he's a year old and still a hair under 600 grams....

[AbsoluteApril]

Lots of reasons for a smaller size baby, as long as the body structure is good, should grow to a normal size.
Maybe it was a slow starter, maybe only took live, maybe never got switched to rats.

My first BP was under 30 grams when i got her, super picky eater, took forever to get established. Was barely 23 grams after she took her first meal with me. I don't weight my snakes much back then but I'd guess she was well under 200 grams by the time she was a year. Doing great now though.

Current yearlings I've been raising up and feeding every 7-10 days are in the 300-400 gram range.

I'm amazed by all you guys that have these giant yearlings, seems totally crazy to me (but then again I would never feed any species of snake more often than every 7 days).

[cchardwick]

Just heard back from the breeder, he says that they 'maintenance free' their hatchlings. I take that to mean they don't feed them LOL. Nothing goes in and nothing comes out.

[zina10]

Many breeders feed "maintenance". I personally do not like to "power feed". Of course, power feeding means something different to every one it seems. I don't like to push their body to reach adult hood size super fast.

I know from other species that this is most unhealthy because sometimes certain structures of the body will grow faster then others, potentially creating problems later on. Not sure if its the same in snakes, but aside from no arms or legs, their body functions much the same then other animals in many ways.

I look at it this way. I cannot force a snake to turn out bigger then it was genetically pre disposed by feeding it more or faster. I can make it fat. I can make it reach that size quicker. But it won't magically get bigger then it was meant to be. Nor do I want to force the body to be "ready to breed" before it should be. A lot of different systems in the body have to be "mature" to successfully (and safely) breed, not just the size.

The thing with breeding Ball Pythons morphs is this though, the longer you wait, the less profit you make on the babies. Each year the price for any certain morph tends to fall, as more are bred. That is why many people want to get their female up to size asap. and breed them asap.

Since profit is not my priority, I can grow mine slower and breed them when I feel they should be ready. I want my females at least 3 years old and the males 2 years old. But that's just me.

All that said, 166 gr at a year old IS rather small. But I have gotten yearlings at 250gr to 300 gr more then once and all of them grew nice and problem free. All of them reached a good size (without hurry).

I'm fairly sure I know which breeder you are talking about, and I have gotten wonderful animals from them. If the weight was listed, and correct, the breeder wasn't trying to hide it.

Just be open, email and ask whether there is a reason the male is so small. Whether he was a late starter, refusing meals, only taking certain food items or whether that is the way he grew him up on purpose. Never hurts to ask, this way you will know what you are dealing with


edited to say: I guess you already asked, didn't see that while I was replying.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I wish I could say that I am surprised but I am not, I have experience the same several times over the last decade, some large breeders just maintenance feed their animals and when you compare them to animal that you produce even if you feed once a week the animal you produce will generally be bigger even if younger.

Maintenance feeding can be anything from appropriate size every other week to a much smaller than leverage size every week.

The good news is that with proper feeding the animal will catch up.

At the same time heavy feeding is not something good either (there has been an increase of fatty liver disease seen in captive snakes, something usually discovered after a necropsy) there is a just a middle between barely feeding to keep your cost down and feeding heavy to get a return on your investment as fast as possible.

[cchardwick]

Well I can't believe that I have to feed a year old ball python week old pinky rats LOL. He did list the weights and I thought for sure that they were just not updated. Not sure why they don't feed at least once a week and update their weights. Most of the time when I'm looking for snakes that are a year or two old I want to use them as breeders, so I would almost pay 50% more for a male that weighs 800 grams and is ready to breed vs. a male that is still hatchling size at the same age.

And females too, just look on Morphmarket, almost all of the older females are gone because people want the weight on them to breed them. I bet that breeder would actually make more money feeding them well and updating weights (and increasing prices to match). The cost of the rodents would be much less than the price increase they could put on the snakes. I've seen hatchling females of some morphs sell for $1,000 while that same morph female at 2500 grams could fetch as much as $4,000!

[JodanOrNoDan]

I am pretty sure I know who the breeder is also and that is all I am going to say. Maintenance feeding can create issues. I have just the opposite problem. My babies grow too fast which becomes a problem if I have to hang on to them for a few months. I am sure there is an amount that is safe, but I am afraid to experiment. It cuts into my bottom line and takes up a lot of space. My adults I have pretty balanced and know exactly what they need in order to stay healthy. Babies are harder. The growth rates and the food required for the particular animal can vary greatly. I do not like how this breeder feeds his animals, but if people keep buying them it will continue. Those of us who do not feed like that have a hard time competing because our cost to maintain our animals is much higher.

[cchardwick]

I am pretty sure I know who the breeder is also and that is all I am going to say. Maintenance feeding can create issues. I have just the opposite problem. My babies grow too fast which becomes a problem if I have to hang on to them for a few months. I am sure there is an amount that is safe, but I am afraid to experiment. It cuts into my bottom line and takes up a lot of space. My adults I have pretty balanced and know exactly what they need in order to stay healthy. Babies are harder. The growth rates and the food required for the particular animal can vary greatly. I do not like how this breeder feeds his animals, but if people keep buying them it will continue. Those of us who do not feed like that have a hard time competing because our cost to maintain our animals is much higher.

You should update your weights on the web and increase your prices. There should be a sliding scale. I just had a breeder friend of mine buy a female pied for $1,000, I think she is 1500 grams. So compare that to a hatchling pied female average price. Now take the amount of price increase per gram of snake weight and you have your price increase scale. If you do that you'll want to hang on to all of your snakes a bit longer, your rodents will be worth way more than they cost! If these two snakes I just bought were both ready to breed I would have paid double or triple the price without hesitation.

[JodanOrNoDan]

You should update your weights on the web and increase your prices. There should be a sliding scale. I just had a breeder friend of mine buy a female pied for $1,000, I think she is 1500 grams. So compare that to a hatchling pied female average price. Now take the amount of price increase per gram of snake weight and you have your price increase scale. If you do that you'll want to hang on to all of your snakes a bit longer, your rodents will be worth way more than they cost!

In my experience, it sounds good, but it just doesn't work in practice. The only people that want adults are breeders. Breeders selling to breeders is nothing more than a pyramid scheme even if it is not meant that way. Pet owners almost always want babies for a few reasons. Also remember that many of the morphs change as they age. Many of the yellow based animals fade as they age. Albinos can start out looking sharp and super high contrast, then blur in a year (this is why I have bought most of my breeding albino stuff as adults). Even with really good genes you can end up with snakes that start off looking super hot and then a couple in that clutch will age badly, so unless you want to cull near adult sized snakes you are stuck with a mess.