AP T8 vs RACK SYSTEM

[Siren]

Hello, all!

I'll be getting my first BP this upcoming year, and I'm very curious about which enclosure you all prefer.

Between Animal Plastic's T8 PVC cage and a rack system (I'm specifically looking at this one: http://www.reptilebasics.com/iris-cb-70-rack) which do you think is easiest to maintain temp/humidity, especially in a draftier home in balls-freezing Ohio? That is my biggest concern, but I'm also very interested in how you feel about either of these enclosures in general.

I will only have one snake for a while, but I'm sure I will want more in the coming years, so I don't mind having a multi-rack system for a single BP.

Thank you for your input!

[Neal]

A rack system would likely be the better option to maintain temp/humidity. The AP T8 is very good however, but if you're living in a draftier home then I would see about getting a Radiant Heat Panel for the warm side, and you can run a small piece of heat tape on the cooler side, just make sure it's dialed in around 82ish. This way by the time it penetrates through the PVC & substrate it'll be in the higher 70's. It's a little bit more expensive of an option, but that's why I said a rack would likely fit your price better.

Another option is to heat the room with something like a space heater.

[treaux]

A rack system would likely be the better option to maintain temp/humidity. The AP T8 is very good however, but if you're living in a draftier home then I would see about getting a Radiant Heat Panel for the warm side, and you can run a small piece of heat tape on the cooler side, just make sure it's dialed in around 82ish. This way by the time it penetrates through the PVC & substrate it'll be in the higher 70's. It's a little bit more expensive of an option, but that's why I said a rack would likely fit your price better.

Another option is to heat the room with something like a space heater.

I disagree. Most rack units are designed for heated rooms that are maintained at the desired ambient temp. This is why they just come with a strip of heat tape for the hot spot. T8s and similar enclosures allow you to put a heat source (such as an RHP) inside to maintain ambient temp as well as using heat tape for a hotspot (or using the RHP for a hotspot and letting it heat the cool side to desired ambient - this only works sometimes...).

I have heard of some AP racks now coming with an RHP side mounted for ambient temp, but I'm not sure how well that works or how it's implemented.

Either way, cold house = use enclosures, not a rack. *edit* Unless, as Neal said, you can use a space heater to heat just the room your snake is in.

[Lizardlicks]

Wouldn't you do that the other way around with the RHP for ambient and the heat tape for the hotspot? Also, a whole rack system is for multiple snakes. If you only have one or two, a rack would be overkill housing for snakes you don't have.

[Neal]

I disagree. Most rack units are designed for heated rooms that are maintained at the desired ambient temp. This is why they just come with a strip of heat tape for the hot spot. T8s and similar enclosures allow you to put a heat source (such as an RHP) inside to maintain ambient temp as well as using heat tape for a hotspot (or using the RHP for a hotspot and letting it heat the cool side to desired ambient - this only works sometimes...).

I have heard of some AP racks now coming with an RHP side mounted for ambient temp, but I'm not sure how well that works or how it's implemented.

Either way, cold house = use enclosures, not a rack. *edit* Unless, as Neal said, you can use a space heater to heat just the room your snake is in.

You can disagree but I'm actually going off my actual experience. My ambient room temp was 70 and with several C Serpent racks I had the hotspot 88 and the cool side was in the high 70's around 78ish. Now with certain racks, yes this wouldn't be the best option, but I can't speak for any racks other than the ones I've owned. Another option is to get wider heat strip installed, but the safest bet would be a space heater.

Wouldn't you do that the other way around with the RHP for ambient and the heat tape for the hotspot? Also, a whole rack system is for multiple snakes. If you only have one or two, a rack would be overkill housing for snakes you don't have.

RHP will help with ambient yes, but on an AP T8, not so much past 1/2 of the enclosure, then again it depends on the size. The heat tape on the colder side set at around 82 would give the substrate on the cool side a higher temp for the snakes belly. The radiant heat panel more so acts like the suns rays, without the light, it's a penetrating heat. I have an AP T8 in my room, where the ambient is 70, with the RHP set to give the substrate 88, the cooler side of the tank is 72/73. That's colder than I like, and so I put heat tape on the opposite side,to raise that to 76-78 and then I have the hot spot at 88.

[Regius_049]

I also live in Ohio and I can tell you I prefer the AP T-10 or equivalent.

You can raise ball pythons perfectly fine in rack systems from hatchling to adult and polypropylene tubs are amazingly easy to clean, but I do not believe them to be ideal "end of life" enclosures for ball pythons.

My reasoning -

Rack systems are very easy to use in conjunction with heat tape or UTHs, but they are rather poor (as a previous posted mentions) at increasing ambient temperature. This means they work well in a room heated to 77-80 degrees, but (in my experience) poorly in rooms normally kept at lower temperatures. Also, I am of the opinion that ball pythons use the extra space in a 48" enclosure. They are seldom active during the day, but ours are quite active at night, even more so it is nearing feeding time. As with humans, a little exercise is probably good for them, but I have no scientific evidence to support this in ball pythons. As another consideration, our larger ball pythons use the extra large hide boxes often used by ball python owners. These hides do not fit well in CB-70 or equivalent tubs as they are too wide. When you move up to something 48" long x 24" wide, you have a lot more space for two of these hides and water dish without taking up 100% of the usable space.

T-10 and other plastic caging (in my opinion) really shines when used with RHPs or a combination of a RHP and UTH. RHPs, while not as good as heat lamps at raising temperature, are quite a bit better than UTHs. Ours are able to raise the ambient anywhere from 7-10 degrees as well as provide hot spots. That said, you could use an RHP set to a slightly lower temperature in conjunction with a UTH and achieve potentially better results depending on individual circumstances. I personally prefer the T-10s for two reasons: (1) they give you a little more height to work with during cleaning and "snake wrangling" and (2) When using RHPs, if your enclosure is only 12" height, you are rapidly loosing height to work with. Also, I think it is really easier on the snake as it is further away from the heat panel and when swallowing food, many snakes will "rear up" to assist in swallowing. I notice some of mine getting cramped or hitting the ceiling when in shorter tubs and enclosures.

Alternatively, if you are heating the room to appropriate ambient temperatures, a T8 with solely UTH heating is still a little short for my liking, but probably perfectly fine.

[Neal]

I also live in Ohio and I can tell you I prefer the AP T-10 or equivalent.

You can raise ball pythons perfectly fine in rack systems from hatchling to adult and polypropylene tubs are amazingly easy to clean, but I do not believe them to be ideal "end of life" enclosures for ball pythons.

My reasoning -

Rack systems are very easy to use in conjunction with heat tape or UTHs, but they are rather poor (as a previous posted mentions) at increasing ambient temperature. This means they work well in a room heated to 77-80 degrees, but (in my experience) poorly in rooms normally kept at lower temperatures. Also, I am of the opinion that ball pythons use the extra space in a 48" enclosure. They are seldom active during the day, but ours are quite active at night, even more so it is nearing feeding time. As with humans, a little exercise is probably good for them, but I have no scientific evidence to support this in ball pythons. As another consideration, our larger ball pythons use the extra large hide boxes often used by ball python owners. These hides do not fit well in CB-70 or equivalent tubs as they are too wide. When you move up to something 48" long x 24" wide, you have a lot more space for two of these hides and water dish without taking up 100% of the usable space.

T-10 and other plastic caging (in my opinion) really shines when used with RHPs or a combination of a RHP and UTH. RHPs, while not as good as heat lamps at raising temperature, are quite a bit better than UTHs. Ours are able to raise the ambient anywhere from 7-10 degrees as well as provide hot spots. That said, you could use an RHP set to a slightly lower temperature in conjunction with a UTH and achieve potentially better results depending on individual circumstances. I personally prefer the T-10s for two reasons: (1) they give you a little more height to work with during cleaning and "snake wrangling" and (2) When using RHPs, if your enclosure is only 12" height, you are rapidly loosing height to work with. Also, I think it is really easier on the snake as it is further away from the heat panel and when swallowing food, many snakes will "rear up" to assist in swallowing. I notice some of mine getting cramped or hitting the ceiling when in shorter tubs and enclosures.

Alternatively, if you are heating the room to appropriate ambient temperatures, a T8 with solely UTH heating is still a little short for my liking, but probably perfectly fine.

I don't think a single person that has an AP cage uses an UTH. UTH and heat tape are two totally different things, not to mention AP enclosures are made to use with heat tape being they have 3 different places to place the probe that was specifically cut to place the probe on T8's. I'm not sure how many other ones have. Heat tape in a rack system, the heat spreads, so it's not a terrible idea. I know countless people that use rack systems and don't have their rooms heated to 77-80.

Now granted, me personally, I don't like racks. You don't really see the animals but if you're getting into breeding or housing a lot of snakes, it's efficiency. When I got back into snakes I did so with the purpose of having them all eventually in PVC enclosures, though some are in Exo Terra right now awaiting orders to come in. I'm going for the display look in my bedroom though.

[Regius_049]

I don't think a single person that has an AP cage uses an UTH. UTH and heat tape are two totally different things, not to mention AP enclosures are made to use with heat tape being they have 3 different places to place the probe that was specifically cut to place the probe on T8's. I'm not sure how many other ones have. Heat tape in a rack system, the heat spreads, so it's not a terrible idea. I know countless people that use rack systems and don't have their rooms heated to 77-80.

Perhaps I should be more specific as the reasons one thing works for one individual and not another comes down to individual conditions. The racks and tubs I have used have been relatively "open" so there isn't much area for the heat to be trapped. A more enclosed rack might result in higher ambient temperatures, but I do not have experience here.

As for a UTH, I define a UTH (under tank heater) as really any heating device designed to be placed under an enclosure and provide heat through it. Thus, zoom med heaters, ultratherm UTHs (which are basically just laminated heat tape with pre-attached wiring), and heat tape all fall into this category. Of these listed options, I prefer the ultratherms as they run at lower temperatures and are the only UL certified UTH to my knowledge. They also seem to have the fewest anecdotal reports of overheating.

[Neal]

Perhaps I should be more specific as the reasons one thing works for one individual and not another comes down to individual conditions. The racks and tubs I have used have been relatively "open" so there isn't much area for the heat to be trapped. A more enclosed rack might result in higher ambient temperatures, but I do not have experience here.

As for a UTH, I define a UTH (under tank heater) as really any heating device designed to be placed under an enclosure and provide heat through it. Thus, zoom med heaters, ultratherm UTHs (which are basically just laminated heat tape with pre-attached wiring), and heat tape all fall into this category. Of these listed options, I prefer the ultratherms as they run at lower temperatures and are the only UL certified UTH to my knowledge. They also seem to have the fewest anecdotal reports of overheating.

Yea, and that's why I stated I had C Serpents racks. They don't have holes in the top,and they are a pretty tight fit, so you have to put your own holes in the tubs. Now with freedom breeder or open racks, that wouldn't work.

Yea, UTH are more for aquariums which is why they have the adhesive to stick on. With heat tape you can get more specific sizes and you have a wider range of dimensions to go from because you can decide the length, so the only factor left is how wide of heat tape you want to go with, plus they're much more cost effective