Where to draw the line ...

[T_Sauer]

So for those who choose to work with the spider gene such as myself ..... where do you draw the line on Hatchling euthanization due to wobble/cork screwing ....

How much time do you allot to evaluate an animal with a bad case and what factors do you take into consideration about the issue before making the decision?

The Hatchling is a Bumblebee, tonight was his fourth meal. He has successfully taken every feeder offered other than tonight. The last feeding it took him 3 strikes to get ahold of the mouse .... Tonight he struck at it about 8 times before landing a poor grab on the mouses butt and coiling it. I didn't get video of feeding but here are two I took after he uncoiled and was trying to eat it.

https://youtu.be/PpLUlPJC19M

In the video above I stopped the video because I thought he had it under control ...... then he dropped it and then I started the 2nd (video below)

https://youtu.be/IPsUJwsHirc

Overall he generally has a pretty bad corkscrew most of the time but is far worse when feeding as you can see.
Thanks in advance for thoughts and opinions

[Seven-Thirty]

Im actually interested in this as well as I am working with the spider gene too.

My stance is if it eats, it stays. But I haven't been in your shoes yet so I don't know. AFAIK a wobble that bad shouldn't be a problem breeding wise in the future right?

I assume the wobble just got worse over time?

[T_Sauer]

Just an update ... I did get the bumblebee to get it down the hatch after I made the OP. I heated it back up (the same as you would with a f/t) and re offered it making sure that the b.b. got it by the head so all he had to do is start working it down and it went fine, ...... this Hatchling is not one that I was going to keep, I am not concerned at all with a value of the snake or missing out on money or anything of that nature. I am simply interested in the best well-being of the animal with the condition being this severe

[Stewart_Reptiles]

The problem with Spider and combos is that what you see now might be completely different in 2 weeks 2 months or a year from now, it's not clean cut like physical deformities that you know will not get better.

A change in temperature can make a difference, I have even seen an animal being ship that was a serious wobbler getting to destination and barely showing any signs (the opposite is true too).

Because it's bad now does not mean it will be forever just like an animal that is fine now does not mean it won't get worse, it's really hard to predict.

Now if the animal fail to thrive and eat on it's own that is where you have an issue and the question is the same regardless of the mutation "how long do you force feed, assist the animal for before giving up?"

[chilliscale]

My spider animals all have a slight wobble at times but they eat, breed, dedicate fine so quality of life can't be that bad. In my fire spinner I never see a wobble until he is in breeding mode while when he was hatchling he screwed around the tub the first 6 months before growing out of it. I haven't heard of too many culling off babies because of a wobble or corkscrew.

[T_Sauer]

The problem with Spider and combos is that what you see now might be completely different in 2 weeks 2 months or a year from now, it's not clear cut like a physical deformities that you know will not get better.

A change in temperature can make a difference, I have even seen an animal being ship that was a serious wobbler getting to destination and barely showing any signs (the opposite is true too).

Because it's bad now does not mean it will be forever just like an animal that is fine now does not mean it won't get worse, it's really hard to predict.

Now if the animal fail to thrive and eat on it's own that is where you have an issue and the question is the same regardless of the mutation "how long do you force feed, assist the animal for before giving up?"

Thanks Deborah, I have had a honeybee for almost 3 years that I have seen the wobble come and go both severe and mild at times, on the other hand I have a bumblebee that I have had for 2 years and not seen a sign of the disorder at all, and a spider Hatchling that is a clutchmate to the bumblebee Hatchling in question, that has shown very little signs of the disorder to the point that if you were unfamiliar with the dynamics of the wobble you would never notice it

My spider animals all have a slight wobble at times but they eat, breed, dedicate fine so quality of life can't be that bad. In my fire spinner I never see a wobble until he is in breeding mode while when he was hatchling he screwed around the tub the first 6 months before growing out of it. I haven't heard of too many culling off babies because of a wobble or corkscrew.

This is what I've been leaning towards, I'm looking at it as "the Hatchling is a baby" hopefully as it grows it will get better at controlling it's body even with the disorder, much the same as a new Hatchling out of the egg ... the don't slither around very well for the first day or two until they get the hang of things. As Seven-Thirty said above .... as long as the Hatchling is eating and staying healthy, it will get every opportunity

[MidSouthMorphs]

Very good info by Deborah! I am another that loves the Spider gene, I have it in my Albino, Pied, and now Clown projects. I have been fortunate in the aspect of not dealing with severe wobble, I have one that has a mild wobble but doesn't alter her quality of life none.

[locolobito]

My spider het ghost orange ghost and bumble bee have slight wobble/corkscrew. Twitch noticeable when eating. My albino spider has bad wobble/corkscrew when held and bad twitch when eating.

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[cristacake]

That was awful to watch I don't know if euthanasia is appropriate, personally. You bred the animal knowing that it might have the condition to this degree. I think if you believe that a bad wobble is enough to justify an animal not existing then it should not have been created in the first place.

It's good that he's able to eat though. I hope he eventually learns to cope with his condition better with time

[O'Mathghamhna]

That was awful to watch I don't know if euthanasia is appropriate, personally. You bred the animal knowing that it might have the condition to this degree. I think if you believe that a bad wobble is enough to justify an animal not existing then it should not have been created in the first place.

I'm a big supporter of this philosophy. If there are going to be this many problems, why continue to breed them? There are so many other beautiful variations out there that are far less risky to the snake. Again, just my opinion but I am also against breeding while there are so many snakes out there without homes or in improper/poor homes.

Anyway, as far as quality of life is concerned, I don't think it's fair to ask another human being, and it's not possible to ask the animals, so there's your answer. We have no idea what quality of life is like even for a healthy and seemingly "happy" snake, let alone one with issues. I will say that working with animals both wild and domestic my whole life, most animals (especially reptiles and wild critters) are masters at disguising pain and just because they eat, drink, and go through the motions of life doesn't mean they are happy, aren't in pain, or are enjoying life. I've manipulated broken bones on all kinds of animals that don't make a peep or even "look like they're in pain," but this doesn't mean they aren't experiencing something terrifying and excruciating.

There is not enough research to feel good about assuming anything about any ball python's quality of life. With that being said, why continue to breed a line with so many issues and wonder? I'd rather feel better about a seemingly healthy BP Normal, than worry about something I can never get an answer to. Survival =/= Happiness OR quality of life.

Again, just my 2 cents...