Is pine really that bad/

[BCS]

I went crazy today trying to find out where I can get some cheap bedding for my snakes. As much a people seem to like it I hate news paper!

I called like 9 breeders today (also emails) and 6 of them claimed to use pine (other used newspaper or paper towel) because it seriously is hard to find aspen here, not really sure why. One breeder said that people tend to be afraid to use it because it smells and they think that it is a harmful chemical. <- This breeder has been a breeder for 22 years and he said he has been using pine for 15 of those years. He said he prefers it over aspen because it does not mold as quickly as aspen and the smell of the pine hides the smell of snake poo. But he is not the only breeder to say these things. I too used pine for the first yearish of snake keeping with absolutely no issues, but after reading tons of forums like this one, I quickly switched. But now that I cannot find aspen, I am thinking of going back to pine. My ASFs and mice have been on it for 4 years and nothing has happened to them and I have read articles and forums again saying how bad pine is for rodents... but I have not seen any of these issues with my own rodents. So what do you guys truly think? Are you just saying no because other people are against it, or have you used pine in the past with negative effects?

[Tsanford]

I use pine 🌲 on the snakes and the rats with no problems. Many other breeders do too!

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[NetalianSoda]

I haven't used it before but I was just reading a post on here the other day about this topic and I think the main thing is to be sure its kiln dried so the chemicals are gone then there aren't any problems. Maybe someone with experience will come and post soon

[MidSouthMorphs]

I still wouldn't use pine. Go to tractor supply, they have large bags of kiln dried aspen bedding very cheap. That what I use.

[BCS]

I still wouldn't use pine. Go to tractor supply, they have large bags of kiln dried aspen bedding very cheap. That what I use.

I have, that is where I used to get my pine! No one carries Aspen... I am not kidding. I have gone EVERYWHERE! Even pet stores! The Aspen they have is SUPER dusty and is the pet smart brand ("best choice" or something like that). If you have ever used it, you will know what I mean...

And yes, the pine I can get here is kiln dried.

[Tsanford]

I've used both Aspen and pine. I like the Harlen brand labratory grade Aspen but it's 15 a bag locally. I switches to pine 🌲 because I can get it for 7.50 a bag. It may not seem like a big price difference, but when you use 6 or more bags a month, it can add up quick.

You can safely use any pine that has been kiln dried and is sold for the pet trade.

I use this


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[BCS]

I don't want to use pine for the cheapness... which is just a bonus, but I would rather use aspen if I could find it. It has nothing to do with price, just how to find it. I have also looked online, that is where price is literally a problem. Things shipped by weight tend to get pricy. For one bad of 4 cubic feet, it cost $150 to ship two bags!... there is no way I could afford it.

[MidSouthMorphs]

Pine and Cedar still have the toxins in them whether they are kiln dried or not, that is why most breeders avoid them.

[Tsanford]

Pine and Cedar still have the toxins in them whether they are kiln dried or not, that is why most breeders avoid them.

Aspen and Cyprus also contain phenols...

I'm not sure what side is conventional wisdom in this debate - that pine is good or pine is bad.

I will throw this into the mix:

Jon and Owen at the EBV use pine.

Tim Spuckler uses it.

Brian Barczyk uses it.

I can go on and on.

So is the conventional wisdom the current internet majority opinion (pine bad) or the old (pine good)?

Like all debates that have their roots in internet mythos, the Great Pine Debate has a fairly traceable arc.

For decades, snake owners used pine shavings for bedding. Pine shaving are all dried by some method or another during processing.

Then fairly recently some people who think they are researchers, doctors and biologists looked at data showing that human beings that worked in paper mills had higher incidences of respiratory illness...and that lab animals kept on softwood bedding had elevated hepatic enzyme levels.

The problem is that without a real scientific background, education or basic ability to draw real conclusions, they made the leap that pine must be bad....and their rantings quickly spread through the internet.

There were no studies showing the effects of pine of reptiles. The rat ladies, gerbil goddesses and bunny mistresses conveniently (or ignorantly) forgot to start screeching that the human disease data was linked to hardwood (aspen) as well as pine along with many other woods. Then they made large leaps in logic and drew connections that did not exist to pine and liver function. They cited studies that did not really prove or disprove their points.

To compound matters, they were prolific in their opinions and now you cannot do a Google search without reading some manifesto about the dangers of pine. So any half wit with an internet connection can scan over this drivel and then get thoroughly misinformed while thinking they are getting informed.

Bottom line: the debate was not a debate until recently, and with the exception of people who lie badly to make their dim-witted points, no one has ever had a snake die due to being housed on pine bedding. No one has ever offered proof that pine causes RIs in snakes, contact dermatitis in snakes, etc. Oh yes, some may vigorously claim it, but none can or are willing to prove it. People can be so married to their opinions.

On the other hand, several well known breeders, and lots of keepers with decades of experience use it without incident....and there are many species who live their lives in aromatic, phenol and resin rich pine litter in the wild.

Hope that helps.

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[DVirginiana]

Pine and cedar have greater phenol content than cypress and aspen...

That being said, I'm not going to comment on the safety of pine bedding as I have absolutely no experience using it. Some people claim to have had problems from it, some people claim to have used it for years with no problems. It's just one of those things where you've got to weigh the evidence. Personally, I would probably switch to something like newspaper or paper towels rather than using pine, but that's just because I've used newspaper for my colubrids for years and it's free. Plus my snakes seem to enjoy getting between the pages.

The only thing I'd say definitely never use is cedar. It's kind of in a league of its own when it comes to potentially harmful compounds.