Snake may be sick from permethrin :(

[kmoranv]

Hi I'm new to this forum and don't know many reptile people to talk to about snake health concerns. Me and my friend got a ball python about a month and a half ago that is pretty healthy baby only a few months old We named him Alhazen. we are first time reptile owners though i did own a few toads a few years ago. He has just had his first shed with us and it was perfect so we are super stoked about that. He's a good eater and has a very good temperament as well. He has been staying with my friend for the first month and was doing pretty good except for a little bit dehydrated because he couldn't get into his adult sized water bowl and she was still figuring out the tricks to keeping the humidity up. Other than that he has been really healthy. We switched him over to my house about a week ago he is rehydrated now and had a really good shed. After the second day being here are started to hear a faint clicking noise in his breathing, and would start opening his mouth more than just a few yawns. I did a bunch or research and decided it was most likely a upper respitory infection. I decided to turn up his heat a little bit on the warmer side around 92, and immediately cleaned his vivarium. Thinking that I've done everything i could to keep this snake healthy i was really confused on how he ended up with one. I chatted with my mom a little bit and she asked maybe his sickness was related to the tick and bug deterrent we sprayed all over my room the week prior(went on a night hike and me and my dog were covered in ticks, one of my biggest fears.) naturally i freaked and coated my bed and ground with the chemical. I looked up online of permethrin was toxic to snakes and a few articles confirmed that it was especially if breathed in. Alhazen is such a good tempered snake and rarely gets really stressed out i took him out a few times to handle and hide under my bed sheets. also so he would know who i was and started seeing i wasn't a threat to him. I've left him alone for a few days at a warmer temperature but i checked on him today and he had vommited a half digested mouse i fed him the day prior but also pooped and his poop seemed pretty healthy. Im ready to make a vet appointment pretty soon because i read the vomitting thing is not something to shrug off.....what do i do other than shampoo my carpets and wash my bed sheets? has anyone had experience where there snake has possibly inhaled a toxic chemical? should i schedule a vet appointment tomorrow or a wait a few days to see if his behavior has changed?

[midnightLeo]

Get him out of that room period. Doesn't matter if you wash your sheets and shampoo your carpet. Is it just in your room this chemical or in the entire apt. ? And yes get him to a vet!

[PitOnTheProwl]

Once it is dry it should be safe. If he was in there while you were spraying then it is likely that fumes were inhaled and yes he has problems.
Keep an eye on him and give him a couple weeks before you try to feed again.

[kmoranv]

It is just sprayed on my bed and around my bed, normally I'm really anti any kind of pest control or chemicals that are not necessary or natural but i was so paranoid of there being ticks crawling all over me in my sleep that i let it be the exception and didn't know Alhazen was going to be staying with me the next week. Im 20 and currently living with my parents in there house, the only problem is theres not really another room i can place him in, his enclosure is massive and used to contain a large female rainbow boa. maybe i can temporarily keep him in a warm ventilated bin with some hides and water until i make sure my room is harmful chemicals free? He can't stay with my friend right now she's out of town camping without any phone reception. And i am going to schedule a vet appointment tomorrow, on the bright side i do live close to a few herp vets.

[distaff]

I'm a little confused on the timeline.
The room was sprayed a week before the snake arrived - is that correct?
I would be dis-inclined to move him to a make-shift enclosure if that is the case.

He may have just had a bad mouse, or been very stressed from the move, but still sounds like you might want to call the vet.

[distaff]

Also, I would suggest finding exactly what was sprayed (product name) and get an MS-DS sheet on it.

Were the sheets laundered after the spray?
Was the enclosure cleaned after the spray?
You might want to consider getting rodents from a different supplier.

Just some random thoughts.

[bcr229]

Permethrin that was applied and dried a week ago shouldn't be a problem. Permethrin poisoning symptoms are neurological, you would see stargazing and corkscrewing, not RI symptoms. It sounds more like your snake has an RI and needs to see a vet for antibiotics.

You said the hot side was at 92*F. What was the cool side? Also what is the humidity - if it's too hot and dry that may cause a regurge.

[JoshSloane]

Permethrin that was applied and dried a week ago shouldn't be a problem. Permethrin poisoning symptoms are neurological, you would see stargazing and corkscrewing, not RI symptoms. It sounds more like your snake has an RI and needs to see a vet for antibiotics.

You said the hot side was at 92*F. What was the cool side? Also what is the humidity - if it's too hot and dry that may cause a regurge.

Exactly this.. Just because something is a 'chemical' doesn't mean that it is going to cause toxicity. Likely the exposure was incredibly small, if anything at all. Pyrethroids are neurotoxic, like bcr said. They would not likely induce any respiratory issues. This pesticide is considered one of the less toxic varieties when compared with organophosphates and other acetylcholinesterase inhibitors.

The reported LD50 for permethrin is noted as high as 2690 mg/kg. This is an incredibly high value, combined with the likelihood of a low oral exposure, there is a VERY low chance that permethrin is causing ANY effects at all, let alone respiratory. Your snake would have to consume unbelievable amounts of this stuff to become sick.

[JoshSloane]

I just realized that my last post might be hard to understand without a science background, I apologize. LD50 is an experimental value that causes death in 50% of the exposed population. Toxicologists use this value to gain a relative understanding about how toxic a certain chemical species is. An LD50 of 2690 mg/kg is extremely high. This means that for a 1kg, or 1000 g animal, they would have to orally ingest 2690 mg of permethrin to induce death in 50% of exposed animals. This is a lot of pesticide. There is no possible way the snake could have been exposed to this amount. You would have to of literally poured it down the snakes throat. Additionally, the dermal LD50 is greater than 2000 mg/kg, meaning that it is not considerably permeable through the skin and does not cause noticeable toxicity when exposed in that manner.

As for the mechanism of action, pyrethroids act by binding to and affecting voltage gated sodium channels. Essentially this prolongs the time that neurons fire, inducing neurological changes. It is not considered to be a general irritant, and only a moderate eye irritant (which most everything is).

Point is, don't freak out. These chemicals are not acutely hurting your snake. Federal regulatory bodies, which are known for being extremely conservative when it comes to chemical regulations, do not require that respiratory or skin safety precautions be taken with this chemical.

In the world of pesticides it is a weakling. Hope this gives you some peace of mind.

[DVirginiana]

First of all, in regards to the regurge, skip a feeding (so two weeks after the regurge) and when you feed him again, shoot for prey that's on the small side of what's recommended for a snake his size. No handling during this time beyond what's absolutely necessary.

It sounds like he has an RI and should go to the vet for it, but I doubt it's because of the bug spray. I'd worry about residue after it dried potentially harming something more sensitive like a frog or invertebrate, but with a snake you're probably fine. RI stuff doesn't sound like it's related to that chemical, but whenever something like that happens and you're worried about a potential toxin in the environment it's good to closely monitor the snake for any symptoms that could be related to it like anything neurological. That being said, it should be safe a week after being sprayed, so I doubt you'll be seeing any of that.

Also, what are the ambient temps/cool side temps? If you just have the snake in a regular room and not a room dedicated to reptiles, that can be harder to get where you want it than the hot spot temp that's directly over a heat source. I keep ambient temps no lower than 78-80.