Is it important to know your animals genetics

[EasiGregory]

Hello all,

I am fairly new to the world of ball pythons despite me owning a few many years ago. Since then I really got into keeping/breeding leopard geckos which can be quite easy to care for and breed successfully. But if you wanted to make any sort of a name for yourself in the industry you really needed to be able to prove out the genetics of the animals you were selling. Breeding geckos to which you did not know truly and with out a doubt the genes behind them was negatively looked upon. Now I know the leopard gecko scene does not nearly come close to the ball pythons in regards to morphs and genetics but as a newer owner and enthusiast it seems that keeping track of the genes in our snakes is not nearly as important. Am I wrong?

Browsing from site to site I see countless name after names of different morphs or nicknames for morphs. I am not sure if it is just me being new or the fact that it is nearly impossible for me to figure out what is "real" and what is an actually proven out morph. I do get that nicknames happen and there will be people that breed something that looks different and will slap a name on it to make some money. But as a person that likes to know the genetics behind my animals, what I am I supposed to do?

One last thing and then I will shut up As with geckos spending money on a pair of geckos tends to lean toward buying a solid female but really putting your time/effort/money into a stud male. Does this hold true to ball pythons? With my geckos I really took my time to find that one perfect male that had the genes I wanted and was a truly beautiful gecko.

I truly appreciate anyone that has taken the time to read this post. Any guidance or clarity to this subject would be very much appreciated.

-Gregory

[oopslala]

From what I've learned in my recent time in the ball python world, genetics are very important when buying your animal. People like to know what they're getting, but it's generally not terribly hard to identify the morph(s) with a few photos because most have their distinct things to them. I don't know anything at all about geckos, so I'm not sure how easy it is to identify them.

It's more important with snakes when it comes to recessive genes. If there is a 100% het pied, you can't see the gene but it's still there. That's where credibility will come into play the most is with recessive genes or hidden genes that aren't visible to the eye.

As for buying male/female for breeding I'm not exactly sure all the details behind that. I do know that generally with recessive morphs you want to have the visual male and het female. When it comes to dominant/codominant morphs the gender doesn't matter (to my knowledge). Though there is the coral glows that will breed 90-95% a certain sex depending on their father if I'm remembering correctly. "What this means is when you buy a coral glow male, you need to know what the parents are to know whether it’s a male maker or a female maker. It does make a difference! Our male coral glow is a male maker, as its father was also a coral glow. Coral glow males resulting from our coral glow should go on to produce primarily male coral glows." taken from http://capefearconstrictors.com/resources/morph-disclosure-coral-glow-banana/

This site has quite a lot of the morphs that have been made: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/

Again, I'm new to the ball python world so I would wait for someone more experienced to come give their 2 cents before making the plunge into a snake.

[Daigga]

The biggest difference between ball pythons and leos (as I understand it) is that ball python mutations are all actual mutations that tend to either appear or not (following dominant/recessive rules) while leopard geckos tend to be polygenic. It's fairly important to know your snakes genetics, but as already mentioned you can usually identify what you have pretty easily. When you cant, you breed to prove it out.

sellers generally won't sell something as a morph unless it's been proven out beyond doubt. Selling a snake as a morph that proves to just be a failed dinker can ruin your reputation and shatter and future transaction possibilities. this isn't to say that some people won't try to lie anyway, but that's when research as a buyer cones in. Never heard of it? Can't find it in a search? No references from the seller? No deal.

You got it right with the stud bit. Males are generally cheaper than females as well as able to breed more often, so you want a quality male to put to your girls.

[EasiGregory]

Thank you for the replies.

A big problem I have seen is where someone buys an animals from lets say a big brand pet store...or even a local breeder. They have either been told it is a specific gene or it has been advertised as such. They then go and breed it taking the word on others and start producing what they think to be solid gene animals. But in fact they end up producing animals that have all these hidden genetics and it just starts to spiral out of control from there.

Mainly I just want to start things off right. If that means me taking my time and finding that perfect male to start my collection then that is what Ill do. I just wanted to make sure that I knew the importance of the genes behind the animal. When I have bought animals in the past I always try to get the history of the animals parents as far back as the breeder can go. If I am going to try and market an animal I want to be honest to the people I am selling to.

-Greg

[oopslala]

Your best bet would be to buy from a known breeder whether it be local or you get one shipped to you. If you stay with dominant, codominant morph snakes, you likely won't run into any hidden gene problems, which will always be listed because it will generally add to the cost of the snake. If you were to happen to run into 2 snakes that somehow had unknown recessive genes that were the same, it'd just be a bonus to what you were breeding because you'd get what you were expecting with addition to pied etc. but I really doubt that will happen if you buy from reputable breeders.

A good idea is to look from a bunch of photos of snakes and find your favorite kind of morphs, thus finding the best snake for you. I personally was about a day from buying a normal and found this site, was linked to http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/ and then it was over. Ended up buying a piebald male instead.

So yeah, all in all, figure out your favorite morphs you want in your male. A good thing to do is just browse through the link above, and even looking on breeders websites and see the available snakes that they have. That was and is my favorite thing to do, see what's out there and dream of buying the $10k snakes. If you buy from a reputable breeder such as BHB or even breeders that are on this site like Deborah and CapeFearConstrictors you're pretty much guaranteed to get what you buy.

[Alexiel03]

also if you want to start breeding balls make sure you buy your females first! it takes about 2 years to raise them up to breeding size and age, males can breed at a minimal of 18 months so buy a few females of the morphs, with the males genetics you have chosen in mind, then get the males when the females are about a year old. it took me nearly 3 to 4 years to find the perfect male butter pastel i wanted, i had bought my female about a year before him and she was already about a year old. plus females are usually more expensive so getting them first would be a good choice, but of you find a male that you find absolutely perfect in your eyes i wouldnt hesitate to get it either cuz it might be a good long while before you find a great one again dont forget to look at kingsnake to find the morphs you want either--- http://market.kingsnake.com/index.php?cat=32

[JMinILM]

I think the big difference between Ball Pythons and Leos is single gene mutations vs polygenetic mutations.

[EasiGregory]

Thank you all for the responses, you have all been helpful.

[TheSnakeEye]

If you are buying the animal as a pet, knowing the correct price for the animal vs it's actual genetics or how genetics work is more important. Now if you want to start breeding and selling to others, knowing the genetics is 100% necessary. Fortunately though, with ball pythons, once you learn the different genes well, you are good to go. You can, for the most part, identify different genes in different combos and be able to say with a certainty that a specific snake does or does not have a specific gene. It's not like dogs, where you can breed two different breeds together and get a mutt that likes nothing like the parents. A Pastel ball python will always look like a Pastel ball python. A Spider ball python will always look like a Spider ball python. And when you mix the two, Pastel x Spider, the combo (Bumblebee) will always look like a bumblebee.

[EasiGregory]

So that leads me to my initial concern. You mentioned pastel, to which I went to http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/ and looked up pastel. It return almost 1300 different variations of the pastel morph, yes combined with different things, but are all of those truly genetic morphs? Or are they just some variation that someone out in the world of pythons decided to give a new name.

"Oh this guy has a shade different then the last...Ill go out and call this a new morph of the pastel gene."

Is there no version control to a combination of genes being thrown together that then make a "morph"? There seems to be so many things being crammed together I can not seem to just find a simple clean pastel. Maybe I am going about this all wrong, or maybe I am misunderstanding something.

When I go to http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/ and it brings back nearly four thousand different variations it makes me wonder...

If I am trying to learn the specific genes in order for me to learn where do I go to find information like this?

-Greg