Striated

[Velrys]

Hello Everyone,

To make a long story short I have been thinking about this question for a while. I have unsuccessfully attempted contact with Constrictors Unlimited multiple times. I have unsuccessfully attempted to start a conversation on World of Ball Python (WoBP) forums (where this morph is listed, it is not listed on BP.net). I still don't have an answer so I wanted to ask the question here and see if anyone has any fresh ideas.

So. I am trying to figure out how the morph listed as "Striated" on WoBP could have come about. For everyone's convenience I have posting the information listed on WoBP below:

The description on WoBP:

The Striated Ball Python was produced at Constrictors Unlimited first in 2008. We bred a Black Eyed Leucistic Ball Python to a Fire. In the clutch was Fires, Black Eyed Leucistics and this Striated girl. The Striated has a complete stripe, it has a dark shattered pattern on the sides, a completely white belly, a pale pink tongue and jet black eyes. The Striated looks very similar to the Super Stripe that is produced with the yellowbelly, but with the breeding that was done here, it is not possible for this to work the same. We are very excited to see where this project will go. More breeding will be done this year (2010) and hopefully we will learn more about how the gene works.

Happily I cannot get a picture off of the WoBP site so please follow this link for images.

The Striated looks very similar to the Super Stripe that is produced with the yellowbelly, but with the breeding that was done here, it is not possible for this to work the same.

To clarify. What is being refereed to here is the morph known as Super Stripe that is the result of breeding a Yellow Belly and Specter. It is not possible because a Super Stripe is simply a Yellow Belly Specter which turns out to have a cool stripe.

In the case of the striated the morph is not the result of simply breeding. Something interesting has to have happened in order to produce this animal out of a Super Fire x Fire. Because, we already know what a Super Fire looks like (Black Eyed Leucistic) we already know what a fire looks like, and those are the only two options for offspring when you put a Super Fire on a Fire.

However, we do know that super females exist in humans (those individuals, female only obviously, with 3 X chromosomes) and it says in the description that this is Striated is a female. I have found some reference to this case which is actually called Triple X Syndrome (among other things) in veterinary genetics and reproduction books which leads me to believe that this could also be the case, and the source of additional genetic information, in the Striated morph.

The most likely argument (I think) against this case is that in humans the occurrence is estimated at 1 in 1000. Though because there is no difference in phenotype from a normal woman and one with Triple X Syndrome this number is assumed to be an underestimation (because there is no reason to have something tested that is not causing troubel) because there is no reason in itself to test for Triple X Syndrome. Obviously snakes are bred all the time in huge numbers and Triple X Syndrome has not popped up as often as 1 in 1000.

I think though that it could actually be occurring more often than we think. Assuming it would work like humans the phenotype of those animals that have Triple X Syndrome would be no different than a normal (for the morphs involved) animal.
Triple X Syndrome is also NOT genetic meaning it would never "prove out". It can be caused by a number of different factors and to different degrees in an organism. From an extra X chromosome in zygotes to an error occurring during development (this can cause only part of the organism to have Triple X syndrome and is referred to as mosaic).

This means that the correct chromosome that codes for fire would have to be effected by the Syndrome which is itself a 1 in 36 (18 diploid) chance. Then it would have to code for something that matters. Something we could distinguish from a normal (for the morph) looking animal.

In humans we can't determine by phenotype if someone has Triple X Syndrome or not. But what if in an animal like Ball Pythons that have VERY drastically different, but discrete, phenotypes based on their chromosomal genetics we can actually see the difference.

Because Striated has come from an animal with a deleterious mutation (one that does not allow color to be communicated through the cells influencing skin pigment) I think it could be possible that serendipitous situation has been found in which we can actually see Triple X Syndrome in the phenotype.



Anyway, I am always open to the fact I am thinking WAY to hard about this and there is some really easy answer but please if you have thoughts share them, please, please, please!

[angllady2]

I have no clue about any of the things you said. It's all way over my head.
But I would be interested to know if this animal had been produced a second time by the original pairing, and/or if it had been bred and produced a copy of itself or something else unexpected.

Gale

[Velrys]

I really would too! Though I mention that if it really is Triple X Syndrome then due to the nature of the mutation this would not be reproducible. But it would help to rule out my idea if it was in fact reproducible.

I have tried contacting Constrictors Unlimited via facebook twice, through their info email address twice and I attempted to email Mike Wilbanks via the email provided on their website with no luck.

The WoBP profile that i quoted in has more information than constrictorsunlimited.com so I asked a question over there (at WoBP), hoping they had some additional info. Who I assume to be the administrator at WoBP made it clear that they were less than interested in the subject.

[paulh]

There is a problem with the triple X theory. Snake females are like birds. They have ZW sex chromosomes while males have ZZ sex chromosomes. In birds, the Z chromosomes are additive, for sex determination. So a ZZW snake would be more likely to be a male than a female.

I agree than a super fire x fire mating would be expected to only produce fires and super fires.

I wonder if the striated could be a combination of fire and genetic stripe (or some other recessive gene kicking around in the parental genomes). But I have not looked for any pictures of that combination yet.

I'd love to hear whether there are any breeding results from the original striated yet, too.

[Velrys]

Hey thanks paul and good points! Your are right, the system for snakes is ZW rather than XY and the females are the het rather than homo.

Youre right, the above example should read ZZW or WWZ? rather than XXX.

Can you explain the additive quality please, I don't really understand.

[Zephyr]

In ZW animals (female) the one Z sex chromosome doesn't cause expression of enough male-determining factors so it stays a female. In ZZ males there is enough expression for the animal to be male. So if there is a sex chromosome oddity then it would more likely be a ZWW not ZZW.

[Velrys]

I gotcha! Yep, so because its female the extra chromosome would be W to keep the ratio on the female side. I understand, thank you.

So, with the modification of these specifics the new theory could be broadened to say "an extra chromosome, in this case W" not specifically the Triple X Syndrome found in humans.