Breeder vs Client Conflict Need Help

[Iram]

So we bred our normal BP female to a male Lesser and she popped out 7 healthy eggs, no slugs, all of which hatched on time, all of them pipped on their own and shed very healthily after hatching.

We were not able to raise them since we were moving from Alaska to California and didn't want to ship the eggs, so we left them with a fellow breeder that we knew very well. She's the one that made sure they all hatched, shed, and ate their first four meals on their own. She maintains very strict quarantine and they were kept in a separate room far from the rest of her collection.

One of our friends decided he wanted to buy one of our lesser females from the clutch at $200. When he bought her she had already eaten several meals on her own and was well enough to be rehomed. Immediately he started having problems, according to him she wouldn't eat and against our recommendations he assist fed her. This is only the second BP he has owned which is why we told him he shouldn't do it and that it would cause the BP undue stress.

After that she started taking on her own every week. Then a week an a half ago he told us while he was holding her she suddenly went limp and evacuated her bowels and was unconscious for 30 seconds before twitching and coming to. Another week goes by and right after feeding he was holding her again and she went limp again, evacuated her bowels, but this time did not wake back up. She died the following morning and he took her to a vet. The vet found no parasites, no blockages, and nothing that seemed overtly wrong. The vet said he would need $400 to test for other disease like IBD to see if that was the problem and the client/our friend is demanding the money from us claiming he made no mistakes on his end and it must be something either we did or the breeder that housed our babies for us.

Other facts: The other breeder still has 6 of the 7 babies in her care and they are all still healthy and eating on time. None of the other snakes in the breeder's household are sick with anything either.

The dame and sire in our care are healthy and eating and showing no signs of any disease.

The client has one other snakes which was from us as well, sired by the same snake, and that BP is doing fine.

The client says his temps, humidity, and housing are perfect and that he checks them religiously.

Total amount of time he owned her: a month.

The client has admitted he handled the snake after feeding it several times but claims that's the only time he was handling it. We know he handles his other BP almost excessively and takes her everywhere with him so we're not entirely sure what 'Little amount of handling' is for him concerning the new baby.

The client says that when he DID hold the snake it was striking and biting him every time.

The client says he used hand sanitizer between holdings of his older BP and the younger one and that he cleaned her tub with a bleach mix of 10:1.
Our questions: What should we do?
We only have male lessers, normal male BP's, and a normal female BP left in the clutch that we could possibly comp him with...

We can't afford to pay $400 for these tests that we're pretty sure doesn't need to happen.

[bcr229]

- It's been a month.
- The other hatchlings, sire, dam, and snakes where the eggs were incubated are all fine.
- The client chose to ignore your advice not to assist feed.
- The client could have taken the baby BP to the vet after the first time where she evacuated her bowels and went limp, but he chose not to.

My opinion: I would not pay for tests looking for any disease at this point as I really don't think it's warranted. If you wish to refund him for the price of the snake that would be very generous, but not required by now.

[Iram]

- It's been a month.
- The other hatchlings, sire, dam, and snakes where the eggs were incubated are all fine.
- The client chose to ignore your advice not to assist feed.
- The client could have taken the baby BP to the vet after the first time where she evacuated her bowels and went limp, but he chose not to.

My opinion: I would not pay for tests looking for any disease at this point as I really don't think it's warranted. If you wish to refund him for the price of the snake that would be very generous, but not required by now.

I have to thank you this reply makes me feel a lot better. I know if this was anyone else I would have been much harsher in telling them no but because they're a friend it's making me feel all guilty

[John1982]

When he bought her she had already eaten several meals on her own and was well enough to be rehomed. Immediately he started having problems, according to him she wouldn't eat and against our recommendations he assist fed her. This is only the second BP he has owned which is why we told him he shouldn't do it and that it would cause the BP undue stress.

The 3rd party acting as broker makes it a sticky situation. Can you 100% back up an animal that has not been in your possession since before it even hatched? Is the responsibility yours or theirs, or is it shared? Who's TOS do you follow? What is your terms of service? Who chooses when an animal is ready to be sold and what guidelines are you following?

Do you have any pictures of this "well enough to be rehomed" snake so we can get an idea of its overall build and what possibly possessed this person to think assist feeding was a valid option? Saying she had several meals on her own alludes to her originally requiring assistance. If this is true, how many times was she assist fed and how many consecutive meals did she take on her own before she was sold?

[Iram]

The 3rd party acting as broker makes it a sticky situation. Can you 100% back up an animal that has not been in your possession since before it even hatched? Is the responsibility yours or theirs, or is it shared? Who's TOS do you follow? What is your terms of service? Who chooses when an animal is ready to be sold and what guidelines are you following?

Do you have any pictures of this "well enough to be rehomed" snake so we can get an idea of its overall build and what possibly possessed this person to think assist feeding was a valid option? Saying she had several meals on her own alludes to her originally requiring assistance. If this is true, how many times was she assist fed and how many consecutive meals did she take on her own before she was sold?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gmc6gi11z...BTt9oiGza?dl=0 The snake in question is number 6. The other pictures are the rest of the clutch. These pictures were taken two weeks before he picked her up, the snake was 2 months old. Our criteria for ready to sell is taking at least 4 meals on their own consecutively, good healthy weight, had their first shed as well as clean sheds following hat, responsive tongue flickering, clean poops, and clear eyes. No signs of any health problems.

Yes I can 100% back this third party. They watched my entire collection while I drove from Alaska to California and shipped them to me and all of my snakes were healthy and still are, they've been back in my possession since July now. Not to mention I've bought boas from her and they're beautiful healthy snakes that I've never had a problem with.

As for our TOS if its a problem proven to be our fault then reimbursement for the client but if it's not we can try to offer advice, information about where they can take their snake. The animal wasn't shipped, it was a local pick up so there was no need for a live arrival guarantee type deal he visited with the third party for well over an hour to meet the snake and took her home that day. When I say had several meals on her own that doesn't imply that she had to be assist fed before, because she didn't, I was saying that all of her meals before going to his home was strike and wrap response and normal.

We had very thorough communication with our third party during the time the eggs were incubating, hatching, and living with her along with pictures of them as they grew up.

[John1982]

I was just confused with the word choice I suppose. Not all snakes are meant to live. Sometimes there's just something wrong internally. The best we can do as sellers is make sure they're eating, crapping and acting the way healthy snakes should. Sounds like you covered your bases in these regards.

I personally wouldn't feel responsible for covering any biopsies after the necropsy showed all clear. If a customer assist fed against my recommendations after such a short time, I'd be more inclined to believe they killed the snake with "kindness" than anything else.

[Iram]

I was just confused with the word choice I suppose. Not all snakes are meant to live. Sometimes there's just something wrong internally. The best we can do as sellers is make sure they're eating, crapping and acting the way healthy snakes should. Sounds like you covered your bases in these regards.

I personally wouldn't feel responsible for covering any biopsies after the necropsy showed all clear. If a customer assist fed against my recommendations after such a short time, I'd be more inclined to believe they killed the snake with "kindness" than anything else.

Thanks so much.

After the vet found nothing in the necropsy I was wondering if it was possible to kill a hatchling just by over stressing it. I've never had it happen and when I try to search for information about it I only find guides on how to reduce the stress for them.

[CryHavoc17]

Id say the guy is SOL and that its not your problem.

You cant take responsibility for everything that happens to an animal you produce after it is sold.

However, if you and/or the third party wanted to pay for the testing to rule out IBD for the sake of your own collections and peace of mind i could see doing that. But not out of any obligation to that guy

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[Daigga]

If you were feeling overwhelmingly bad about it, the client could always have the tests done out of his own pocket and you could reimburse him if it came out to be anything that might fault you or the other breeder, which it doesn't sound like it was. Assist feeding a snake for their very first meal in your care even though they've been good eaters before doesn't sound like good husbandry practices to me. I may make small mistakes in husbandry every so often, and as owners I think people should recognize when they made an error instead of automatically blaming whoever they bought it from. I would certainly ask questions if a snake I had for only a month died, but demanding compensation for something that may actually be my fault would only make me look stupid.

[MarkS]

You don't owe this guy a dime. Basically your 'friend' killed his own snake, doesn't want to admit responsibility for it and is trying to shift the blame to others.