Quandary regarding my future breeding plans! What would you do?

[Suimaru]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'll get to the point.

I recently decided that I wanted to get into breeding balls, so I picked up a few juvenile males (Pastel, Yellow Belly, Het Ultramel) with the intent of breeding them in the future. I picked up a Spider female to pair up with the Pastel and aim for bumblebees, and was going to pick up a female Yellow Belly to aim for Ivories.

However; I had the chance to grab three big normal females for next to nothing. They're 4,000grams, 2,200 grams, and 1800 grams. Now I'm at the impasse as to where to go from here. Should I try to pick up a 2-3 gene male to breed to all of them, and put the pastel/yellow belly projects on the back burner? Heck, should I sell off the Pastel and Yellow Belly to fund a 3-gene? If purchasing a 3-gene is a good option, what genetics should I look for in order to get the best bang for my buck?

Furthermore...As I mentioned, I'm new at this...how large of a male will I want to breed with the 4,000 gram girl? I just have this worst case fantasy scenario playing out in my head where I put a 1,200gram male in there to attempt breeding and wake up to a cannibalized snake...

So! Could I have some advice? What would *you* guys do from here?

[sho220]

How soon did you expect clutches? And how many clutches are you looking at? If you're shooting for this year, may want to go with those normal females...

If you're looking at a few years down the road, I'd take a look at some combos you can make with the males you have, and then pick up some females depending on what you like.

To be honest, you've already started off on the wrong foot. You have no plan, you're already male heavy, and you're looking at the most common genes out there...

Also...1 Pastel male + 1 Yellowbelly male does not = a 3 gene male...

[wescoast]

Yeah plan a bit more. Find amorph u like and aim for that or ur passion will be empty. I took some favs as babies and have mulitple oucomes next year. I have two under yearlings. A bee female and a pastave male. I lobe all prints and outcomes so im excited thru and tru. . 2 two genes can make norms singles duble triples and maybe a mojave bee or killer. I have the outcome calculator but image hosing is a mess on a cell phone. Allni know is I got like 9 optional morphs and 3 are 12%ers. Those are odds anybody will like

[Pythonfriend]

i agree, i hate to have to say this, but sho220 is right, strategically this is a very bad start.

single-gene pastel male, single-gene yellowbelly male, het ultramel male.... even if they look really nice and are good examples of the morph, none of these is useful for breeding in 2014.

other new hobby breeders start out with single or double gene females and triple gene males, or with visual recessives and visual recessives with extra genes and 100% hets with extra genes. some hobby breeders and small breeders that have been at it longer now work with BPs that have 4 genes or 5 genes or 6 genes, or with visual recessives + 3 extra genes, or with visual double recessives.

the market for single-gene morph males and for hets without extra genes and for normal females is saturated, prices are incredibly low, and everything is so advanced that most breeders would not even consider buying and pairing up anything that is so genetically weak. (morphs that are hot and new and rare and expensive are the exception).

if you breed a triple gene male to normal females, you cannot advance, the best you can hatch out is a similar triple gene, and thats rare. both parents need to contribute something if you want a chance to advance.

the ideas you are currently considering produce 50% normals and single-gene morphs (triple gene to normal), or even 75% normals and single-gene morphs (YB to YB). these are difficult to sell, and if you want fair prices that are high enough to justify the effort and to recoup some of your costs, these wont help you. you might be forced to keep them, or to sell them at really low prices. in the meantime, others produce clutches where the hatchlings have 3 genes or more on average, and only occasionally produce a normal or a single-gene hatchling, and hatch out 5 gene combos just as often as they hatch out single gene morphs. for them, its no big deal to wholesale their normals and single-gene hatchlings at really low prices, because these only make up a small percentage of the production.

you really need to re-think it all. if you start out the way others did 15 or 20 years ago, you wont catch up, the market is too far ahead of you. if you want a bee or an ivory, dont breed pastel to spider or YB to YB, just buy them. and when you really want to breed, consider buying BPs like a really good looking female bee hatchling or female ivory hatchling. one year later, buy a really good looking triple gene or quadruple gene male. that would be a plan that gives you chances to advance and compete, when you start out with producing clutches where most of the hatchlings are double-gene and triple-gene.

[kc261]

I'm a little surprised a long time lurker started out with males. "Get females first, give them time to get up to size" is very common advice, and always has been, at least since '07 when I joined this forum. Lately "don't use single codom males" has also become quite common.

But... you are where you are. So, now to make a plan for how to proceed. First of all... definitely MAKE A PLAN. It can be flexible. It is good that you have in mind making bumblebees and ivories. Bumblebees are attractive and popular and will most likely continue to be so in the pet market for quite some time, although they no longer have much value since they are made of 2 of the cheapest and most common genes. Ivories are one of my personal favorites, and have the bonus of producing all yellow bellies when they are bred, and yellow belly does some nifty things in combos.

You may want to turn around and sell those 2 single gene codom males you just bought. But you most likely won't get back what you paid for them, and certainly won't get enough to pay for a 2 or 3 gene male, but it'll stop them taking up space and eating food and will at least contribute towards that 2 or 3 gene male. But, if you have patience (like...YEARS) or are just stubborn, you can work from the ones you have. Or, something kind of in the middle, if you've had those normal females long enough they are quarantined, you could start throwing your males with them now, and then hold back some of the single gene females you'll (hopefully) get, sell off all the males (including the adults) and normal babies, and then buy the 2 or 3 gene male to use for the next round of clutches. But it might take quite some time before you get clutches, and you might have trouble selling off all those low value common snakes.

The most important thing is to do what you want. For example, I really want a pied someday. Common wisdom says that they are cheap enough now that I should just buy one. But for some reason I can't fully explain, I really want to see that spotted baby coming out of an egg that came from non-spotted parents. I find that aspect of recessive genes to be unbelievably cool. But that doesn't mean I have to breed het pied to het pied. I'll probably end up doing something like pastel het pied x mojave het pied. Or using double hets. That way, although I'm still only producing 25% pieds, the non-pied babies still have a high chance of being something other than normal.

[CORBIN911]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'll get to the point.

I recently decided that I wanted to get into breeding balls, so I picked up a few juvenile males (Pastel, Yellow Belly, Het Ultramel) with the intent of breeding them in the future. I picked up a Spider female to pair up with the Pastel and aim for bumblebees, and was going to pick up a female Yellow Belly to aim for Ivories.

However; I had the chance to grab three big normal females for next to nothing. They're 4,000grams, 2,200 grams, and 1800 grams. Now I'm at the impasse as to where to go from here. Should I try to pick up a 2-3 gene male to breed to all of them, and put the pastel/yellow belly projects on the back burner? Heck, should I sell off the Pastel and Yellow Belly to fund a 3-gene? If purchasing a 3-gene is a good option, what genetics should I look for in order to get the best bang for my buck?

Furthermore...As I mentioned, I'm new at this...how large of a male will I want to breed with the 4,000 gram girl? I just have this worst case fantasy scenario playing out in my head where I put a 1,200gram male in there to attempt breeding and wake up to a cannibalized snake...

So! Could I have some advice? What would *you* guys do from here?

Aswell "bang for your buck" it almost sounds like you expect some good income out of your first season!

Remember its a hobby with some nice incentives to 90% of the breeders here, This being my 2nd year i still am paying off everything iv purchased with selling off babies, From food/bedding/ARS rack/Snakes!!!

Aswell its not always this case, but many snakes will take time to settle in before breeding, So most people plan on a few month cooldown for new females.

This being the case, grab the 3 females, And relax on them, With your other snakes, Use that 4-6 months to Plan out what you want, plan out your finances, and plan out your goal in the end! Nothing with these snakes is quick, but everything often is slow/stressful/never to go as plan, From females not eating at the 1000g mark to that gorgeous 3-4 gene Stud of a male, being lazy and doesn't want any fun with the ladies...

So please step back and realize nothing here is a quick buck! Enjoy it, let it takes its time and embrace it with these wildly addicting animals!

[Pythonfriend]

dont even consider breeding these single gene males to normal females. just to make that clear.

if you want these 3 normal females, get a better male for that.

this being said, i think there is one alternative. so, you are now stuck with pastel, yellowbelly and het ultramel.

males grow up rapidly. much faster than females. so the counter-intuitive strategy would be: get a double gene female that works well with yellowbelly. something with fire and/or enchi. something nice, a really nice double gene female. and then go against the rules and breed your yellowbelly male to that double gene female. chances are 1 in 8 that you hit the triple gene, male or female, and 3 in 8 that you hit a double gene, male or female. now what you really want is to get a double gene male or triple gene male from that very first clutch. chances for that are 1 in 4. the female triple gene would also be a holdback. anyway, hope for that male, double or triple gene, raise it up, and replace that single-gene yellowbelly male.

lets say you do this with two females, both very nice double-gene females. breed the male to both, get a holdback male, breed the holdback to the other female, to combine the genes from the first female with the genes from the second female.

the problem is, you got a single-gene pastel male as well. yellowbelly has some potential, pastel is everywhere. adding pastel to stuff gets you nowhere, pastel has already been added to everything and the combos that work well with pastel have been figured out. a male pewter or pastave or bee is cheap enough, basic double gene combos with pastel are abundant on the market.

then there is the het ultramel male. you could play a game similar to what i outlined for the yellowbelly. get a visual ultramel enchi female. hope to get a visual ultramel male, with or without enchi, in the first clutch, replace dad as soon as possible.


this breaks many rules of thumb, but it follows some other rules: to progress, both the male and the female have to contribute something. and females are important, get females first, and in your situation with 3 males and no females, it simplifies into: get females.

if you want to work with normal females, you better have a triple gene powerhouse male, otherwise it makes no sense. and if you want to work with the het ultramel male and the yellowbelly male you have now (forget the pastel), better get awesome females, hope to hatch out males that can replace dad, and quickly raise them up.

in a perfect world, you would stay away from basic single-gene codominant males and het males and would also stay away from normal females. but the situation is what it is.


by the way, a while back, BHB reptiles had an offer: 3 normal ball python hatchlings for 50 dollars, you choose the gender. it was a special offer, but it was available for at least a month or two. so if you are going to spend a whopping 50 dollars on 3 female hatchlings, better make sure they come from one of the best breeders in the business and that they are in perfect health and have eaten. now, starting from this value, add 2 or 3 years of food, not sustenance feeding, but feeding for weight gain. calculate the cost. and when you consider the cost of the amount of food that it takes to get a female up to size, with an initial investment of 16.70 dollars for the female, you get a value. and when you find big females on the market that are cheaper than that, then you know that they are pets and that noone buys them to breed them. when the price for big females matches the result of your calculation, then you know that raising them up is a zero-sum game. such calculations should influence your decisions, there is work associated with each BP, and there are running costs, i only mentioned food.

[sho220]

i hate to have to say this, but sho220 is right

It's a hard thing to admit. I know. My wife tells me all the time...

[CD CONSTRICTORS]

Best article I've read since I started breeding......

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2012/02...thon-breeders/

Anyways.... keep those Normal girls for future use. The Spider could fare you well also.

As far as the males, I would get back as much as you can from them and start over. No one really purposely breeds for Bees these days. They are fallout from larger projects. Same with Super Pastels.

I would pick up a nice triple gene and maybe even a double gene male as a backup plan. I recently picked up a pair of triple gene males to go with my Normal girls and a few other morphs as well. Weight wise, I have been pairing a 650g Nuclear Pinstripe with a 3300g 0.1 Normal and a 2600g 0.1 Pastel. They get along just fine, and he's getting the job done.

[sho220]

No one really purposely breeds for Bees these days. They are fallout from larger projects. Same with Super Pastels.

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...