Discussion time - Boredom and "enrichment" in snakes

[JellyFish72]

Personal anecdote up top, discussion on the bottom.

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Let me preface this by saying that our collection has some ridiculously strong personalities in it. Quite a few don't act like BPs at all.

I have bored snakes.

I know there's a very divisive debate on whether snakes feel emotion or whether we anthropomorphize them. I'm very strongly of the opinion that they have emotions, personalities, desires, etc. For those of you who disagree with me, I genuinely invite you to spend an hour with our collection, because you will change your mind.

We have a few BPs that follow the standard adage of "a happy ball is a hiding ball", but others... (and I'll refer to them by name because it's easier to follow) Prada snaps her tub lid when she's bored, Albert flips his water bowl, Houdini plays with his paper and waves at you to get your attention, Recon climbs the walls of his tank until he falls over (or if he just wants your attention he taps his hide until you give him said attention)... Penny, Jive, Bindi, and Vada are content to drape themselves across their tubs and watch you from across the room.

I know many people claim these are signs of stress or whatever, but we've determined these to be genuine attention seeking behaviors. If we take them out and handle them, let them explore, they settle down. Let me also clarify that these are noticeably different behaviors to their hunting behaviors.

I was joking around earlier that I should develop a line of snake toys based on the reasoning that if rodents, birds, and horses can all justify having toys, why can't reptiles, but this is a genuine thought to me. Does anyone have any sort of "toys" for their snakes?

I know for Recon (who is in half of a T8) we're still working on the design, but we will be installing a wooden lattice for him to climb and perch on - he has an identity crisis; he thinks he's a Green Tree Python. Genuinely - until we managed to permanently mount it, he could take his light down in under 2 minutes and would be perched on it 24/7, once going so far as to hunt, strike, wrap, and eat a small rat from it without ever touching the ground. The breeder we purchased him from didn't believe it to be possible until we showed him the video (he now understand what we mean when we say Recon is genuinely odd).

For Houdini, who I bought after he played peek-a-boo with me, I'm considering putting balls (potentially those plastic jingly cat toys that my cat refuses to play with) into his half of the T8; while he enjoys exploring and simply perching on your neck and shoulders while you go about your business, he seems to be seeking something to do whereas the others are more seeking attention.

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I'm genuinely curious to see what y'all's views on this are, and I'd like to start a true discussion of this topic. I feel as a community we're beginning to move away from the idea of snakes being instinct-only animals, and I know I'm not the only one to have extremely strong personalities in their collection.

Why are other non-mammals like birds (who are often also considered instinct-driven, though more trainable) considered to benefit from toys, but not reptiles?

The majority of us would consider our snakes to be intelligent (well, with the exception of Recon up there...), so why do we (the community as a whole) accept the idea that they're content to do nothing 99% of the time? Wouldn't they benefit from the intellectual stimulation alone?

I've worked with all types of animals for the majority of my life, and I've always been very firm in my belief that all animals are as complex as we are, we just haven't necessarily figured out how to interpret them yet. We know of mammals capable of higher thought (gorillas, dolphins, elephants), and we know of mammals at least capable of forming complex bonds with humans (cats, dogs, horses) if not complex thoughts and actions, so why do we inherently assume mammals are the only animals capable of these things? I would argue that it's because we can interpret the body language of mammals better than of birds or reptiles on a subconscious level, and this prejudices us. We know that humans are prejudiced against snakes to begin with - it's a subconscious learned behavior in our evolution, which is also why so many people claim to be afraid of snakes until they actually meet one.

Discuss, rebut, etc. - rather than just say they are, tell me why do you believe your snakes are instinct-driven? Why won't they benefit from enrichment? Have you noticed similar trends in your collection?

[CatandDiallo]

Why are other non-mammals like birds (who are often also considered instinct-driven, though more trainable) considered to benefit from toys, but not reptiles?

Because birds are among some of the most intelligent land animal (some bird species more than others).

I don't know about this. If we look at their behaviour in the wild, I think this says it all. They spend the majority of their lives in a burrow - not seeking enrichment. Perhaps when we take them out of their natural habitats (even if they're captive bred - instinct is instinct) they tend to stray around their tanks more. I don't know, but you cannot compare birds to snakes in terms of intelligence.

[CORBIN911]

Because birds are among some of the most intelligent land animal (some bird species more than others).

I don't know about this. If we look at their behaviour in the wild, I think this says it all. They spend the majority of their lives in a burrow - not seeking enrichment. Perhaps when we take them out of their natural habitats (even if they're captive bred - instinct is instinct) they tend to stray around their tanks more. I don't know, but you cannot compare birds to snakes in terms of intelligence.

Well this is all true, Intelligence cant be used to loosely if you ask me, Sure instinct is instinct, and a bird can talk chatter and play with others, BUT They are intelligent in there own right, and have clearly shown this by being an insanely long living animal who havnt been taken off the face of the earth like many other species, aswell as the crocodile/alligator. Sure they thrive by instinct but does this mean they are stupid or dumb, When being one of the alpha predators in the wild?

Im sure i could very well be wrong about it all, but there instinctive intelligence is enough to make me think they are smart, know good from bad, and know danger from safe.

[LLLReptile]

The reason enrichment is so seldom considered for species such as ball pythons is because of the understanding of their most basic needs - these are animals that have evolved to sit in one spot, waiting, until food walks by. Their fundamental make up is to use as little energy as possible until food comes by, or until they feel ready for breeding.

Yes, there will be subtle differences in behavior and personality; that can be explained, rather easily, by the inherent minute differences in genetic makeup that go into a species so commonly bred in captivity. Differences in behavior in a species, while not the cookie-cutter identical norm, are actually completely expected and not at all surprising - that's where evolutionary adaptation gets its root.

I believe enrichment for ball pythons could and should involve things like larger enclosures with varied hiding places, multiple options for heat, and even a day/night cycle with color-balanced lights. Toys, though, at least for ball pythons - I think that's a bit overkill, and perhaps reading too far into certain behaviors.

There are more active, diurnal hunters, such as kingsnakes or the pituophis genus, which could and do benefit greatly from increased cage space and enrichment in the form of being taken out, given climbing opportunities, and new things to investigate. They spend their days in the wild investigating everything they come across to see if there is food; as such, they're a snake species I think would benefit from more active interaction. They can and do still thrive in a simpler rack setup, but they do also respond extremely well to cage enrichment.

There ARE reptiles that thrive with more mammalian styles of enrichment, such as food puzzles, and those are monitors, tegus, and similar large, predatory lizards. Again, though, when you consider what they do...they actively hunt, they don't just sit and wait.

Ball pythons are excellent beginner snakes, and exceptionally fun for keepers who love them, but it still seems to me like your snakes are exhibiting behaviors indicative of seeking different conditions, not necessarily human attention.

-Jen

[jclaiborne]

Jen Pretty much said what I was thinking, I think that the idea of "toys" for snakes is a little off, but I do agree with providing larger than the "norm" cages for them and climbing opportunities, I like them to have the option of roaming and exploring. However I do fully believe in providing enrichment for my lizards. Both my Blueys and even my baby tegu play with the little "cat balls" and the "treat" balls ( I do not leave them in the cage alone), they really do seem to seek attention. When the blueys want attention they will actually come out of their hide and paw at the glass until I open the door. I am always adding to their cages, rearranging ( I keep their hides constant) taking them out and letting them roam, etc. The tegu reminds me of a cat. I can be cleaning the cage and it will walk up and rub against my hand, if I start to rub my finger on its back it will stretch out and push against me, but as soon as shes done, she tail whips me and takes off.

[AlexisFitzy]

Oh I love this thread I hope it triggers a lot of discussion! I've felt & had the same exact thoughts as you have but I've gone a lot deeper into it because there are just a ton of questions and things I don't like about how we view reptiles. So much so that I couldn't even post it all in this thread. It would take me Forever to type it all out. But I'd love to come & visit your collection I have 3 snakes and they all have very different but strong personalities. Especially my newest girl Sheik. There's something very strange and fascinating about her because she's so different from my two boys. I know you to discuss publicly but I'd love to message you personally and run some things by you I just don't want to start an argument on your thread with my unpolished thoughts on the matter. And plus it would be nice to talk one on one with someone who is thinking on the same wavelength as you since most people already have what they think set in their heads because of the "facts" so your probably going to get a lot of the same answers just said in many different ways.


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[piedpython]

I think snakes have some ability to "learn". My BP comes out of his hide as soon as I unlock his tank and waits. If I stoke his back he will flick his tounge and let me pick him up with no flinching. If I do not do that he starts looking for food to be dangled. And he is puppy dog tame now and I think he "likes" to come out for my warmth, to strech out and explore. I do not think they are smart in the sense of birds or mammals, but can learn to tolerate different things and learn where things in their enclosures are.


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[CptJack]

Well this is all true, Intelligence cant be used to loosely if you ask me, Sure instinct is instinct, and a bird can talk chatter and play with others, BUT They are intelligent in there own right, and have clearly shown this by being an insanely long living animal who havnt been taken off the face of the earth like many other species, aswell as the crocodile/alligator. Sure they thrive by instinct but does this mean they are stupid or dumb, When being one of the alpha predators in the wild?

Im sure i could very well be wrong about it all, but there instinctive intelligence is enough to make me think they are smart, know good from bad, and know danger from safe.

Birds are also SOCIAL, and their enrichment is, depending on species STILL to mimic things they do in the wild. Tearing up trees, foraging for their food, and social interaction in either the form of humans or other birds. This applies to cats, dogs, and other animals just as much, in what we give them the opportunity to do with us and how we provide enrichment/training/play. Dogs? We play with them. We capitalize on all that breeding we have done to make them social, crave human attention or to do specific jobs and channel it somewhere else. Even housebreaking is capitalizing on a natural behavior - to keep their dens clean. Cats? Litterbox training? Natural behavior to bury waste. Play? They hunt. In our homes they may hunt feathers on sticks, but it's the same sort of thing. Even hamsters - wheels for exercise, things to chew. Rats and mice? Social structure/company, climbing, foraging, maybe running.

I love my snakes. I love my snakes a LOT. But what do BP in the wild? They meet each other to mate, they eat, and they stay in solitary burrows under ground. The 'enrichment' we provide them is STILL in mimicking that. They eat, they may or may not breed, and they're given clean cages and hides. We take them out and let them move around. That's... Literally the only behavior the wild animals exhibit. There is nothing more to capitalize on, as far as enrichment goes. Wiggle a dead rodent or provide a live on, give them somewhere to hide, let them move around sometimes, provide a water bowl they can soak in if they want and substrate they can burrow in if they want. . I'm not sure what else you're even looking for. BP don't climb, they don't actively hunt (they ambush), they do not live in groups.

What sort of behavior or activity is it they engage in, in the wild, that they do not experience or have the opportunity to exercise in captivity? Because that's what enrichment *is*.

(Please note, I'm talking BP only here in saying that 'enrichment' opportunities are basically just being kept with good husbandry - rather than toys. Other reptiles, not so much, not even other snakes. But BP are what they are, and that's not a king snake, a tegu, an iguana, or a turtle. It's certainly not a bird or a mammal.)

[CORBIN911]

I love my snakes. I love my snakes a LOT. But what do BP in the wild? They meet each other to mate, they eat, and they stay in solitary burrows under ground. The 'enrichment' we provide them is STILL in mimicking that. They eat, they may or may not breed, and they're given clean cages and hides. We take them out and let them move around. That's... Literally the only behavior the wild animals exhibit. There is nothing more to capitalize on, as far as enrichment goes. Wiggle a dead rodent or provide a live on, give them somewhere to hide, let them move around sometimes. I'm not sure what else you're even looking for. BP don't climb, they don't actively hunt (they ambush), they do not live in groups.

What is it you would be providing via providing an outlet for instinct or behavior in the wild they do not exhibit in captivity?

Bold'd part sounds like the average teenager now

[CptJack]

Bold'd part sounds like the average teenager now

Man, I've got teenagers. Add in 'endless hours of video games and hostility when disturbed' and you've nailed it.