Clarifying pin x pin and spider x spider crosses

[Marrissa]

Ok so I know there's no super spider or super pin. Now that I've gotten over my aversion to the spider wobble I have some crosses planned that would be spider x spider. Now if this is supposedly lethal and the egg reabsorbs or whatever, does this mean I'll get less eggs from doing spider x spider or pin x pin crosses? How many do these crosses and what are your findings?

[PhoenixGate]

I'm curious about this too. Thread subscribed.

[OctagonGecko729]

If the homozygous spider or pinstripe are lethal, then a heterozygous crossing with another heterozygous has a 25% probability of creating a homozygous (lethal).

So, in a 4 egg clutch, 1 wont reach viability.

OWAL will probably post here about his findings on the two genes and has a much more in-depth analysis of them then me for sure.

[Marrissa]

Yeah that was my thought. I which case means I need more males than I originally planned..

[Pythonfriend]

i think so far there is insufficient data.

i would expect that in a spider x spider breeding, you get 33% normals and 66% spiders and a 25% drop in fertility. thats what you get when you make a 2x2 punnet square, remove one of the squares, and count the rest. the same with pinstripe.

the problem is you need a lot of clutches to be sure that its 66% and 33%, instead of lets say 75% and 25%. and you need a lot of clutches to notice a 25% drop in fertility. and if you assume that the female produces more follicles than eggs, meaning not all follicles turn into eggs anyway, you might not even get a drop in fertility. proving it out is incredibly challenging.

what we know for sure is that when you breed spider to spider, or pinstripe to pinstripe, is that you get a lot of spiders or a lot of pinstripes and you wont get any sick or deformed hatchlings. so there is no real reason to avoid these pairings, if you can live with a potential 25% reduction in fertility. but it might add up and the odds might stack against you if you try a breeding like calico spinner to calico spinner.

if anyone knows more its probarbly OWAL, he is really studying this stuff.

[Krynn]

Is there any examples that we know of where a dominant gene produces homozygotes?

[OhhWatALoser]

guess I have a rep for being loud about this topic

Is there any examples that we know of where a dominant gene produces homozygotes?

According to BHB, he had a pinstripe, that came from a pin x pin pairing, it looked like any other pinstripe. it in total produced 27 (if my memory is correct) offspring all pinstripe. It is the only breeding records I have heard from a pin that came from a pin x pin pairing. There are a couple people I know who have already produced possible super pins, I am hoping to produce some myself this year. It is repeated a lot that pin x pin is lethal combo, but between what I have personally heard from bhb and there not being one account of ANYTHING to even suggest it, I honestly have no idea how people came to that conclusion.

According to greg g, there are a couple of super leopards, that look like any other leopard. I haven't seen any data on them though.

According to vin russo, the original congo imported turned out to be homozygous, I'm not sure how many offspring he made, but since its the founding animal, I would assume quite a bit.

According to ralph davis breeding records, he did a platty x platty pairing. Knowing daddy and lesser are allelic genes, we can safely assume there are only 3 possible phenotypes, BEL, platty, and super daddy. Well it wasn't a BEL or platty and looks like a daddy gene animal to me, you can be the judge of that though: clutch 76 http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...thons_8_07.asp

Now the super spider.... My political answer would be there is not enough public evidence to say what is going on with it.

Now I will just leave this right here:http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tml#post775644 However scattered evidence of lower than expected fertility and other claims that would never hold up in court or could be explained away in another way, and even a "You didn't hear this from me" makes my honest opinion that if it is figured out, that we will find the super spider is lethal. However my theory completely contradicts what a certain someone says, so that's where I will leave it. This subject has been more openly discussed on blbc quite a few times, here is a short thread from a month ago: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tml#post909402 if you really want to get into it, talk to asplundii, he is far more educated in the subject than I am.

[Marrissa]

Alright well now I'm more confused than ever. I don't want to take the chance of losing 25% of a clutch (not going full term or even just not producing the egg or whatever). I like what spider does in certain combos so I guess I'll have to make sure to keep plenty of non spiders to cross spiders to.

[OhhWatALoser]

I can't blame you for the confusion there is ton of contradictory information out there, I just took it all in and made my own opinion. My opinion is also there aren't many things that look worse with spider in them, i'm sure you won't have any problem finding cool non-spider mates for them This year I got a bumblebee het hypo breeding to a het hypo and a hypo, then I got a lemonblast het hypo breeding to a spider which if all goes my way I should have quite a few new spider crosses in my collection. Don't be discouraged.

The super pin I think is pretty cut and dry, there is not one shred of anything to suggest it being lethal. The argument I always here is "then why isn't there tons of super pins". which is easy, super pin looks like a normal pin, to prove out a super, it takes years of recording keep, using other females, for less financial gain and an animal that looks no different than the one that takes approximately half a second to identify, the normal pinstripe or in the case of a female possible super pin... it could easily be 5 years before she had enough eggs to make a conclusion and realistically would take longer. There not much incentive. My pin x pin pairing is a dinker project I hope to prove out, but even if that fails. I am still going to produce possible super pins and heck yea I am going to try and prove them out. Not for the money, not for the looks, just because I would love to shut up the people blindly screaming "lethal'.

[Pythonfriend]

i think it would be really cool if super pins would be a thing.

but assuming they are real, its still really hard to prove out. when you breed pinstripe to pinstripe, the pinstripes would be 33% possible super pin. you still need to prove them all out, each with a large number of eggs. and when one is a likely super pin, with a significant number of only pinstripe offspring, you can breed that to a pinstripe to get 50% possible super pins. you still need to prove them all out. to really produce them, you need to breed super pin to super pin. its an enormous task. i hope you will be successful.