Experiences / Methods of introducing new pups to adult / juvie males?

[artgecko]

Hey guys!

I now have my future breeding stock, the four pups I got from an adoption litter. Three are females and pose no issue (they'll be housed together), but the male will need to be integrated with my other two juvie males.

The juvie males are large now... Close to "medium / large" rat in size, while my pup is only 5 weeks old. I have separated him from his sisters so he's solo right now. I intend to get him another similarly sized male pup as a "friend" and possibly another addition to give me more breeding options. My goal would be to house all 4 males together and then choose which one to breed with which female, etc. (I will really need to keep litter numbers down at first, so leaving in with the girls isn't an option).

From what I've read on rat forums, I shouldn't introduce him to my current males until he's about 8 weeks so he can defend himself (hence needing a "friend" so he's not in isolation that long).

What are your experiences with introducing pups to juvie / adult males and how do you go about it? Just toss them together, etc? I've been reading what folks on the rat sites say, but I'm curious about how you guys do it since you have to work with so many more rats. I want to be cautious with my male pup as he will likely be the foundation of my breeding program / colony so want to avoid him getting annihilated if possible.

Thanks, as always, for your advice!

[satomi325]

I would introduce him as soon as possible while he is still young. Older males are more inclined to accept younger males than older. Plus your baby male should just be coming into sexual maturity, so I personally would do it before that.

I used to house my males together with no issue until I introduced a newer unknown male to their group. He was about 8-10 weeks old. He had his intestines pulled out of his body. And that's how I found him alive trying to crawl away and get out of the tub.

So unless males have grown up together since pup hood, or introduced to older males as pups, I now keep males separate.

I usually just put rats together without any special introductions. I clean the enclosure and wipe out their scent. Then drop them all in at the same time with some treats.

Or I dont clean the enclosure of the new rat, then introduce established ones into the new rat's enclosure. It makes them less inclined to fight if its not their 'territory'.

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[aldebono]

And since you are wanting to breed for pets as well. Males as well as females should not bully others. There will be some sniffing and shoving and the little boy may squeak because he is frightened and letting them know he is uncomfortable. But there shouldn't be any true fighting or squaring off, IMO.
In my experience, males who are bullies will bully their established females as well. I had a blue male that every time I cleaned tubs and he got worked up, he would harass his females.
Bottom line, no one should give you issues.

[sorraia]

I don't go through special introductions, and I don't wait until baby boys are a certain age. I expect my rats to get alone, no questions asked. If they don't they are removed from the breeding program. Temperament is very important, even in feeders.

As a pet/show breeder, I broke "all" the rules when it came to introductions, and never had any problems. I knew my rats that well, and I knew their temperaments were that good. I could move males around from cage to cage, group to group, any age (young or old), no problems at all. In the very beginning, when I first started out and didn't have that kind of temperament, I did have a few problems with older males being introduced. Even now I haven't had problems, and I regularly mix up the groups because I don't want to have a go through a lengthy reintroduction process every time someone is separated for some reason or another.

If you don't know your animals, or the genetic temperament of your animals, I would advice caution, just to be safe. Accidents can happen quickly, and I HAVE seen rats tear holes into each other in a matter of seconds (too fast for me to stick my hand in and pull them out, or if I did I ended up with the hole instead, true story). Though the pet hobby recommends waiting until the babies are 8 weeks or older, I actually think that's a bad idea, based on my personal experience. The reasoning is, the juvenile can then escape or "fight back" if things get nasty. That's not true. That 8 week old can still be torn apart by older males. In addition, older males are going to see that 8 week old as more of a threat, because he is bigger and better able to fight back. A baby, who is still learning, is easier to dominate and is more "teachable", and the older males are (in my personal experience) more apt to accept him for that reason. Things can still go wrong, so if you don't know your animals go ahead and go through the lengthy introduction process, starting with multiple play dates in neutral territory, then multiple play dates in a common play area, then finally introductions in cage.

[MrLang]

Unrelated to the question you asked, for 4 females you should only need 1 male, really 2 so they can keep each other company when not breeding. After they breed and you put them back together, make sure to re-introduce them in a clean environment etc. because the scent of females can cause a fight. I put a dab of vanilla extract on them behind their head where they can't rub it off because the scent will mask the scent of the ladies.

[aldebono]

Oh, I just remembered. I had very limited space breeding so everyone was expected to get along. There were times where I had adult father/son and adult brothers in the same bin with females and producing babies. This teaches us that there can be two males to a breeding group, but this probably only worked because they were raised in the same bin. As well as, males should not eat babies just because they are not their own.

This is more of an exception than a rule because of the temperament of my rats. I know I could have separated those males into their own group with females and reintroduced them later with females with no issues.

Those I mentioned above were NOT related to that blue male I mentioned previously.

[artgecko]

Thanks again for all of your input and sharing your experiences guys!

Last night (before I checked the forum) I went to my local store again and they happened to have a male that was approximately the same size as my male pup. I bought him and introduced them last night and all went well. He's shy, but seems to be sociable and non aggressive and has cute markings and larger eyes as a plus.

Based on your advice, I will let him settle in for a few days then go ahead and introduce both of them before this time next week (making them about 6 - 6.5 weeks old). I think I will still introduce on neutral territory, but will then move them all into a thoroughly cleaned and de-scented cage if all goes well. I will definitely take your advice about the vanilla extract too.

Satomi- Your story about the male with the intestines is probably the most horrifying thing I've ever read rat-wise. Did you gas the poor guy?

Angela- Yes, I'm hoping for good temperament with both sexes, but my lines are unknown (pet shop) and I've heard you can't tell aggression until they are mature at around 8 months or so... Since I am waiting to breed anyway, I guess I can eliminate any of the males that show signs at that point.

Sorraia- Thanks, I will do slow introductions I think, unless things go really well on their first play date.. If I have any doubts, will do multiple dates before setting them up together.

MrLang- If all of them survive, etc. I will end up with 4 males who will be housed together. My first two are probably not going to be used as breeders unless they have stellar health from now on (had some sneezing / Myco issues when I first got them, one in particular). Not sure about the health of the new guy either, so out of 4 I may end up only using 1 or 2 to breed.

[sorraia]

Where temperament is concerned, you can start seeing signs early on. Bold, friendly, curious, explorative, not easily stressed are traits you want to look for. You want to avoid shyness (keeping in mind there's a difference between new animal settling in and true shyness), easily stressed, fearful, aggressive, overly pushy andr obnoxious, possessive. You'll start seeing these behaviors as early as 12 weeks, and them peak between 6 and 8 months.

[artgecko]

Thanks for the info sorraria! The new pup seemed to stress easily today (I had to correct him for nipping me and he put up a fuss and then hid as far from me as he could get. I'm still unsure on him, temperament wise, so we'll see how things go. He's at least keeping my pup company temporarily until I can introduce them to the bigger boys.

The two older boys seem ok temperment wise (not agressive towards me and nothing but "wrestling" so far with each other).. Not as outgoing as I'd like, but they were not handled when babies.

[satomi325]

Satomi- Your story about the male with the intestines is probably the most horrifying thing I've ever read rat-wise. Did you gas the poor guy?

Yeah, I immediately CD-ed him on the spot. I was truly horrified since that was the first time that has ever happened.

My males normally don't fight and live together peacefully even with new comers.
Heck, one time I even had a "gang bang" with no hostile aggression. I used to put extra grow out males in with my breeder males to save space. They got along swell. I never did anything special for introductions. I just put them in and left. No problem. And one time, I miss sexed a female and threw her in there too. She grew to sexually maturity and all the males took turns breeding to her one after another. I was so surprised when I saw that.