New to the forum - can use some advice.

[billyb]

Hi all, I am new to the forum but not to reptiles. Have had many over the years but it has been a while. My daughter (14) has been bugging me for a snake for a few years and my wife is finally starting to crack. After doing quite a bit of research the snake that continues to rank highly is the ball. My daughter has seen them, has held them at the Westchester NY expo and feels its a good fit as well. I have a couple of questions that seem more subjective, that I feel are best answered by real life feedback from regular owners and not necessarily breeders or "fanatics" whose opinions can sometimes be skewed. I want to preface that I am by admission no expert AT ALL. I welcome any feedback - I am trying to cultivate her interest but do not wish to do so if it is something that will ultimately become a chore for her.

The whole frozen/live debate. While the concept of frozen seems more convenient, is that the case in reality? I understand that it may be cheaper but the idea of having mice in the freezer, then having to thaw them might be something that is a hassle to deal with? I am not sure the wife would even allow this option.

Do they need to be fed in a separate tank? We never did this as kids but it seems I read that over and over. I would think it may create some stress for the animal moving it back after eating as well as possibly a higher chance of the snake striking her?

As my wife despises snakes, I was thinking a male would be better for her as they are generally smaller in size. Aside from value does it matter? Is one more docile than the other?

I like the idea of either re-homing one that an owner can no longer keep or buying one from an enthusiast. I understand there are risks in this thinking as you do not always know the history of the animal and in cases there would be no way or returning a snake. There is certainly a cost benefit as I regularly see snakes, and the complete setup on Craigslist for far cheaper than at a pet store (I do not want to buy from a pet store).

Lastly my thinking was rather than get a "normal" ball I should get her one that has some sort of breeding value. I am generally not crazy about obtaining a pet for the "look", but if they are about the same temperament-wise then I guess it is not so bad (she loves the spiders!). My thinking here was if husbandry was something she may wish to do she would not have to give up her now beloved pet (we have some experience in this realm). In addition if it were something that she lost interest in then recouping some of the cost would also be a possibility.

Thanks to all in advance and sorry for the long post.

[crazypythonlady]

Hi! Well the Ball python is the way to go for a first snake, they tolerate husbandry errors a lot better than most snakes. I agree with you daughter spiders are awesome and have a lot of breeding potential. I paid about 100 bucks for my male a year ago so they aren't that pricey. Although it is nice the idea of taking in an unwanted snake for you first it is better to pick one up from a reputable breeder if you take in a rehome you don't know how well it was cared for. On the point of feeding I have 6 balls at the moment and I feed them all in their tanks. None of them have ever been cage aggressive. I also feed F/T mice I buy in bulk and but them in a box in the main freezer. I would not feed a ball python live because sometimes the snake is not interested in feeding and the mouse/rat will chew the snake and cause injury. There is not a difference in temperament between a male and female, ball pythons are usually docile by nature they tend to hide when provoked or scared. Also about the expense, the biggest part will be incurred during the purchase...the tank, lighting, hides, décor, etc. After that it is all about getting the food which I pay about 30 cents a mouse when I pick them up from expos. If I run out a box of 6 or 4 depending on the size at Petsmart is 6 dollars. Hopefully this helped!

[vangarret2000]

Feed. F/T. Thawing is not a hassle. Put mouse I. Warm water. Wait. Done. What would be a hassles is having to feed and clean mice enclosure when you are stuck with one for sometimes months on End when your Bp has gone off food. When it's in your freezer you keep it wrapped up so its safe. You wouldn't buy mice, open them up, open up all your food and then toss then together would you?

Feed it in its own enclosure. Don't move it. People that believe you need to do this, and for the reasons explained why you should, are just gullible and inexperienced. Your question on why you Maybey shouldn't move it are correct.

Males and females have no difference when it come to how docile they will be. And males tend to be smaller then females but all bps are a smaller type of snake. They tend to only be around 3-4 feet.

Spiders had breeding value a few years ago but like the above poster said, you can get them for like $100 now. They aren't very valuable compared to what they once were. You shouldn't buy to breed anyways. There are enough breeders on the market. If you bred yours there is more likely a chance it will cost you more then you sell them for and you might not even be able to sell some of them and get stuck caring for them.

It does sound like you only want one with "breeding value" so it will be easier for you to sell it later. If you are buying it, and planning on just getting rid of it when because you know you won't always want it, then just don't buy it in the first place. There are WAY to many unwanted reptiles in this world because of people like you. These creatures can live for 30-40 years. If you aren't gonna wanna care for it for that long then don't get one. You would just be adding to the problem. Bps are so common in the market there is always some new morph coming out that drops the current morphs values. So anything you do buy, when you go to sell it, it most likely wont be worth as much and might not even be a sought after morph anymore.

You should only buy a rehomed Bp when you get one. You can generally save a lot of money if you wait for the right one. Just make sure it has the proper enclosure if it does come with one. And because you plan on just getting rid of it at some point at least you will only be putting back an unwanted reptile into the pot instead of adding a while new one.

[billyb]

Firstly thank you both for taking the time to reply, I appreciate your insights and value your opinions.

The discussion about frozen vs thawed was more around the process of keeping dead rodents in the freezer, then the process of thawing them (understanding that my wife is not totally on board) sounds like it is a bit more intrusive to a household than a live mouse. I was merely looking to some real world advice in that regard. Sounds like it may not be as bad as I think.

It is good to know that maintaining a separate feeding tank is unwarranted and possibly harmful to both the animal and the handler.

As for the comment of "people like you" that statement is ignorant. You do not know me and to make that judgment is asinine. This is probably the wrong thing for me to do but because those words are hurtful I will.


I currently have 3 rescue dogs which would be dead today without me. Last year my daughter and I successfully hatched and released snapping turtle eggs which were rescued from a local tree crew who wanted to throw them in the trash. I (and usually one of my kids tags along) regularly visit the local pound to spend time with the discarded and misunderstood pitbulls in a nearby city. My daughter volunteers throughout her whole Summer at our local nature center. I have rehabilitated and released several animals back into the wild. I also have a long list of volunteer efforts (both monetarily and time) in regards to animal welfare. This is a small list that I can think of while I type this message.

If I was the type of person who did not care for the animal, or who would release it into the everglades, would I be spending time researching and posting a lengthy note on a ball python forum? I would go to Petco with my Visa card and buy it on a whim, then put an ad on Craigslist offering it to the first person to show up with cash. The point of the conversation is that the reality of the situation is that children can and do lose interest in things (as a father of 3 this is a topic I do feel qualified to speak on). It can be a sport, a hobby, or even a pet. When they no longer care to play baseball you simply put an ad on Craigslist offering to sell or donate the gear and all of the equipment is gone - when its an animal you have more of a responsibility. I am not naive to think that this may not happen.

As for the husbandry aspect, the act of caring for the turtle eggs, watching them hatch - seeing that some are weak and some may even die was an invaluable lesson for my daughter and an experience she and I will cherish for our whole life. If the snake creates an interest in her to experience that I will encourage her to do so, and willingly pay whatever price it would take to make it happen within my means. I am fairly confident in my ability to find a responsible home for them if this is something she wanted to do. I have a regular job and never stated this was something I was looking to do to pay my mortgage, that was your assumption.

[liv]

Hi and welcome to the ball python world!

For feeding, I prefer live. My live feeders seem to have stronger feeding responses and I don't have to deal with the mess that comes with thawing out ~15 rats. It's really just personal preference.

I think it is a great idea to start off with a morph, single gene or otherwise. I don't think the market for spiders, pastels, or any other single genes is going anywhere like a previous poster insinuated. If you do get hooked (like most of us have!), you'll have a nice starting point.

If I were you, I would get my first one from a breeder. You'll likely get a health guarantee of sorts, someone to answer and questions specific to your animal and a better deal than you would at a pet store or a pet store animal on Craigslist.

It sounds like you and your daughter will fit right in, I can't wait to see pics of your new addition when you pick it out

[Tribal]

I personally would avoid the spider gene due to the wobble for a first snake.

[Shadera]

I'm a breeder, so you probably don't want my comments. There are actually a ton of us here, and I hope you'll consider any wisdom we have to pass along. We've seen it all.

Frozen vs. live. Honestly? Whatever works better for your family. If you decide to feed live, you'll either then have to keep and breed rodents in the house (something the missus might not like) or buy from your local pet shop, often at high prices when feeding time comes. With frozen rats, it's very easy to have a small supply of rodents tucked away in the freezer. You can keep them triple wrapped in plastic, or partitioned off by cardboard from the rest of your food. Thawing is easy.

Separate tank. Completely unnecessary.

Male vs. female. Completely up to you. Females can get bigger, but there are some pretty hefty males out there, too. One is indistinguishable from the other temperament-wise.

My advice would be to get your first animal from a breeder. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have one nearby that you can go visit. They'll back up the health of your new pet, something you might not get from craigslist. As far as value and morphs, the only limit is your wallet. Get your daughter the animal she falls in love with, and that should keep her interested for years to come. More likely, it will spark a "fanatical" love for these animals, and plans to add more of them in the future.

Good luck!

[crazypythonlady]

Sorry BillyB if you took what Van_Garret 2000 said to heart. I think what he is trying to instill is the thought that our hobby is constantly under fire. Over breeding of ball pythons are flooding the market and dropping the value of them on a yearly basis, But anyway you could always get a small freezer for the feeders if your wife doesn't allow the mice in the communal freezer..my husband wasn't to thrilled about it either lol . Also I want to clarify my stance on the "rescue" or rehomed snake from craiglist. I recently acquired a ball python from craiglist that I was excited to have I paid 200 bucks for a Butter morph. Unfortunately the snake had to be put to sleep within a week of purchase ...the previous owner assist feed the snake (for reasons unknown) and ripped its esophagus which led to internal bleeding. When I picked up the snake it seemed to be in great health but it wasn't and it was heartbreaking for me. This is what lead me to advise against the rehomed ball I would not want that to happen to anyone specially someones first snake. Also a great book on husbandry is "The Complete Ball Python" by Kevin McCurley.

[billyb]

Thanks all for some really helpful replies. I willingly accept advice from those who know better. It seems it is smartest for me to purchase one from a dealer which I am fine to do. Maybe the best bet is to visit the next Reptile Expo as they happen quite often? I assume I can find reputable dealers there? My main concern is getting one that is docile and not skittish. I know the more handling the better in this regard but I am guessing some just like to be handled less. It also seems getting some sort of morph makes sense - I am happy to stay away from any which may be predisposed to health issues. What would be some recommended morphs to research? I know she also liked the orange variant (I think we researched it as orange ghost?). I think its good advice to let her pick as it will increase her investment into the responsibility.

Is there a posting spot for recommended breeders on the site? Are any in the New York area? Should it matter?

[aalomon]

Thanks all for some really helpful replies. I willingly accept advice from those who know better. It seems it is smartest for me to purchase one from a dealer which I am fine to do. Maybe the best bet is to visit the next Reptile Expo as they happen quite often? I assume I can find reputable dealers there? My main concern is getting one that is docile and not skittish. I know the more handling the better in this regard but I am guessing some just like to be handled less. It also seems getting some sort of morph makes sense - I am happy to stay away from any which may be predisposed to health issues. What would be some recommended morphs to research? I know she also liked the orange variant (I think we researched it as orange ghost?). I think its good advice to let her pick as it will increase her investment into the responsibility.

Is there a posting spot for recommended breeders on the site? Are any in the New York area? Should it matter?

Reptile Expos are a great place to find a bp. There is normally a considerable variety (half the booths seems to be bps these days). If you do buy from a breeder, dont be afraid to ask questions about the animals history. Ask to hold it. Look around at his other animals, are they all healthy (well fed, hydrated, parasite free...). IMO, if he even has one sub par animal I would keep looking. Reputable breeders are proud of their animals and wouldnt bring anything unless its in great shape.

As for morphs, if youd like to get your mind blown try looking through this site - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/
youll find all kinds of morphs there, though if you find something you like male sure you research price on kingsnake or fauna otherwise you might end up with a shock at seeing the pricetag (though there are a ton that are very reasonably priced).