"Papers"

[eatgoodfood]

I wanted to start a different thread here because of what I brought up on another thread that seemed to be taken over by the subject. I asked another member if they got papers for a snake, and there was a lot of different opinions and views on papers. It is something I am used to here in Germany, maybe its not the same everywhere in Germany, but it is around here. I have papers for almost every snake I own, and some other reptiles, such as my monitor. The only snakes I do not have papers for are the ones I have from a friend, who if i NEED them will produce them for me, so no concerns. The papers with my monitor, well I have to have them because he has to be registered with the city. But back to the balls.



That is a good example of what papers here look like, they are not all exact, but they all have the basic information.

Its called a proof or origin, or Herkunftsnachweis.

As you can see it has the type of animal, sex, morph, and where/when it was bred. DNZ meaning Deutsche Nachzucht or bred in Germany, you sometimes see stuff like ENZ or CNZ saying what country it came from, or FZ meaning Farmzucht or farm bred, i.e. wild caught from Africa. Below that it states if its from their collection, or from their breeding, in this case they did not produce the animal, but were selling it.

It then states that the animal is visually good and is visually free from sickness. Then it says that its being sold without any known disease, that if it dies or is sick that they take no responsibility. That the sex is correct to the best of their knowledge but they have no guarantee on it. Then it finally says that the new owner understands the above and accepts the terms with their signature and that there is not return on the animal. And as you see it has my wifes and the breeders signature there.

Its basically a TOS, but its a binding contract. It technically is something one could sue over I suppose, and this is to cover the breeder. Even when not recieving animals in person I have gotten these in email and had to sign and send back. I think its good, its a legal binding contract between the seller and buyer. Maybe something that should be implemented in the states, give buyers and sellers some piece of mind.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Papers are only as good as the breeder is.

Any shady breeder can produce paperwork, if they are really shady it won't matter, they will not stand behind their animals and will have long disappeared before you have a problem, paperwork or not, binding contract or not.

Many breeders do not provide any paperwork with their snake and I have no issue with that, it's all about buying from someone reputable to me.

I still provide paperwork but it's more in the event of a re-sell, I want to make it easier for my customers to be able to re-sell their animals, giving the ability to the future next owner to know where the animal originally came from and to contact me if they have any doubt on the animal being offered to them which is I keep pictures and original paperwork on ALL animals I have ever produced an sold.

As for animals that I purchased without paperwork, I will only sell them and guarantee their genetics if I prove them out myself.

[eatgoodfood]

Well in the case of pretty much everything I have I know what it is, and they cant lie on the paperwork, because well, their incomplete dominate genes, its pretty obvious, or like above a visual albino. Sure someone can lie, and lie on the paperwork as to where it came from and what not, but if they do, I promise I can sue them, will I, likely not, but thats beside the point.

I did have someone try to scam me here and sell me their male pastel lesser as a female, when the paperwork they had said it was a female, either faked, or they got screwed, idk. Although, to no surprise, they didnt seem surprised then I popped the snake and determined it was very much a male. Your not going to get one over on me. Not to mention their husbandry was bad at best and the poor thing was starving, but thats a whole other thread. I also would likely not buy hets from someone I dont know or trust, but I suppose that applies to everything I buy.

Ive always been skeptical, like when I first got into this, the store I got my first BP from tried to sell us a pastel, at the time, to my untrained eye it looked the same just lighter, I had no intentions at the time of breeding, the wife just wanted a pet snake, so I said no, the normal one is fine 80€ vs 300€ for what, some lighter browns? not thanks. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought the pastel

[bcr229]

Actually I want to thank the OP for starting this thread as I was going to in a few days. As someone new to the herp world a concept I've found lacking that does exist with other animal breeding industries is "provenance". Maybe it's because the snake breeding industry is still fairly young that people don't realize there is added value in knowing who bred the animal, what's its parentage/lineage, what offspring has it produced, etc. Coming from the horse world I find this lack of information a bit disconcerting, as even flippers will have it available for a show or breeder-quality animal; without that information it's basically a "grade" horse, sadly worth little more than meat price in today's economy.

Obviously someone purchasing a herp (or a horse) as a pet may not care but IMO that shows a short-sightedness by the person who bought it. Herps can thrive for decades in captivity, while our lives change in an instant. We gain and lose jobs, we relocate, we get married and divorced, children come along, we get sick, we can die, etc. Any of these life events can spawn a "collection must go ASAP!" sale. So, if you're selling a het that's never been bred/proven, how do you show a potential buyer that it's a het and not a normal? If you have a pastel, how do you prove it's from a breeder's desirable genetic line versus an unknown purchased from a big-box store? Sure, buyers can look for markers or for other signs of quality that make up the various dom and co-dom genes, but it would be a much easier, quicker, and more lucrative sale if a buyer could verify info with a known breeder.

As a breeder I also care about where my animals end up. I want them in great homes where they will receive proper care, and if that means making myself available to answer questions even years later, I consider that part of the package when I sell.

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

As Deborah stated papers are only that a piece of paper and only as good as the breeder that produced them!

We have several hets in our collection that we don't have papers on. But they came from reputable breeders to begin with and if we ever really needed them(If we decided to sell the animals) the breeders would be more than willing to produce the papers for us.
And if we couldn't get papers for them and we hadn't proven them out they would be sold as just the visual morph price, bt letting the customer know that we bought it as a Het whatever so they know.

As far as us supplying paperwork on our animals if a customer wants them we have no problem supplying them.

With regards to the pedigree/lineage paperwork it just isn't a part of this hobby and I'm not sure if it is even necessary. You can easily see the visual quality of the animal you are purchasing, any reputable breed will be more than willing to supply pics of the parents, siblings and offspring the animal has produced if its a proven breeder.
Also the issues that are attached to different morphs is pretty public in this industry so with a little bit of research you can find out.

1 part of the paperwork that the OP posted that I think is ABSOLUTELY INSANE and REDICULOUS is they don't guarantee the sex of the animal!!! I don't know of a single reputable breeder here in the US that doesn't guarantee the sex of the animal they are selling unless it is listed as unsexed(usually when dealing with normals and wholesaling them).

[eatgoodfood]

So I flipped through all the other paperwork that I have gotten from other breeders, they vary in what they include or do not include, what is guaranteed what isnt. I know that if for example, you have an animal that has to be registered, such as my monitor, it is illegal to have it without the paperwork, because you have to send a copy to the city to prove that you are now the owner of this animal, and if you sell it you have to send the copy with the new owners signature and info to the city to show you no longer own it, otherwise you are breaking the law.

As for with balls, im not sure if you have too have paperwork, I honestly cannot remember seeing one sold in a store or at a show without it. So maybe by law you have to have it. I will ask my wife when I pick her up from work, I am still learning the laws here.

As for the sex not being guaranteed, I do not care, I checked it myself before buying, and again, I only buy from people I trust or was recommended to, have not had an issue yet. What all of the paperwork does however have in common, is of course the species and where the animal originated from. I think it is illegal to import wild caught BP's here, dont quote me on that as I could be mistaken, but I remember hearing something like that, I will find out. So if you have a wild caught, you have to have the paperwork to back it.

Idk, you are all correct, the paperwork is only as good as the breeder, and the breeder can lie, anyone can lie. I do however think that there is a bit less of the scamming BS going on here, or maybe I just dont see it because I am not involved in any German forums like this one, I dont really know if any exist?

Anyway, I still think it would be a good thing for breeders to give paperwork, even if someone thinks its meaningless. YOU know that the animal you produced is quality and you are just backing that with a piece of paper, just like I have pedigrees for my cats, and for the kittens I am selling, I also would not buy a cat without one. Which leads me to this, we have kennel clubs for cats and dogs and such, that regulate how and how often things should be bred, they rate quality, and provide the pedigrees for the animals. I wonder if something like that could work for BPs... hmmm new business idea for me.... lol not sure the community would receive that well, but then again, the buyers would be better protected. Might help stabalize the market, keep prices higher... but thats getting into the theme of a thread on another forum Im sure many of you have seen.

Anyway sorry for going off on a tangent there, I will get back after talking to the wife, just maybe not tonight.

[eatgoodfood]

So I asked the wife and shes pretty sure its required by law here. For example if I want to get certain animals it might require a permit where I would have to show I have the ability to care for the animal and might require an inspection of my place. They could ask for me to provide paperwork for what I have. If I cant I could get a fine or maybe they could take my animals. Not all too sure.