Need help with temperatures

[BPGuy]

I've reviewed the care sheets and the FAQs and have been lurking around the forums here for a month or two, but I still am confused as to how best to regulate temperatures.

I have two normal ball pythons. Both are males. One weighs about 1,179 grams, and the other weighs 1,068 grams (weights were as of a month ago). I have each ball python in his own 40 gallon glass tank (Zilla Critter Cage). I'm using ZooMed ReptiBark as a substrate, about 1/2 - 3/4" in each tank. Each tank has two Reptile Basics hides (learned about those hides while lurking here and ordered four of them); one hide is on each of the ends of the tank. I also have a small ceramic water bowl in each tank that is changed every other day (if not daily).

One tank is in a hallway between my kids' bedrooms (where the thermostat that controls the heat and A/C in their bedrooms is). The other tank is in one of the kids' bedrooms. I live in Phoenix, Arizona, so during the summer we keep the house at 80-82 degrees for most of day, though we might lower the temperature to 78-79 in the evenings when we are home from work and school (never lower than 78 in the summer months). During the winter, we keep the household temperatures around 68, though sometimes we'll get it up to 70-72, especially in early evening/night (around the kids' bedtimes).

We got the first BP last August, when it was still pretty warm in Phoenix. Thus, we started out using just a 100-watt red light on one side of the tank (might have been 75 watt--I can't recall for certain). That seemed to work very well while the room temperature was in the 78-82 range. However, as winter set it, I had trouble keeping the temperature in the tank warm enough. Long story short, I ended up putting a medium ZooMed UTH under each tank (actually, one tank as a UTH on the side of the tank and another underneath the tank on the same side of the tank, but that's another story--I now am using just the UTHs under the tank and have unplugged the one on the side). In addition, I replaced the red lights with a 150 watt CHE, with the CHE being placed on the other side of each tank opposite the UTH because the UTH didn't seem to be driving up the ambient air temperature in the far side of the tank high enough (I don't recall how high it got, but it was not more than 80, which I thought was too cold).

When I use a Black & Decker infrared thermometer to measure the substrate temperature over the UTHs, I get really high readings (over 110 in some places, but as low as 84 in others--all over the UTH area, mind you). However, when I touch the substrate that is over the UTH, it doesn't feel nearly that warm. Moreover, the Exto-Terra digital thermometers I have at substrate level near the UTHs read 84.6 or so. The Exto-Terra digital thermometers at substrate level under the CHEs have been reading 85-89 this week (depending upon when I check them). Both BPs seem to be hanging out in the hides under the CHEs and not in the hides over the UTHs (though I have, at times, seen them in the hides over the UTHs).

At this point, I am totally confused as to where I should be measuring temperatures (substrate level or higher up in the tank) and which side of the tank I should consider to be the hot spot and which side should be the cool spot. I've got two ZooMed ReptiTemp 500R units that I can use (right now, I have one hooked up to the CHE in one of the tanks, but I am wondering if I should use them for the UTHs instead). I also have a ZooMed Hygrotherm that I am using with the CHE in the second tank (again, should I instead use it to control the UTH instead?). If I use the thermostats to control the UTHs, do I put the thermostat probes at substrate level directly over the UTH (and, if so, how do I do that without it getting in the BP's way?). FWIW, I also have two 100 watt CHEs that I'm not using (they weren't strong enough to get the ambient temperatures up).

Had I seen this site before I bought the ReptiTemp 500R unites and the Hygrotherm, I probably would have passed on those and bought Herpstats. However, I now have a bunch of $ invested in the ZooMed products and would prefer not to spend additional $ if I don't have to. So, with this in mind, do you have any recommendations as to how best to set up the tanks given the equipment I have? Also, where do I want to be measure the temperatures (substrate level, mid-tank, or top of the tank)? I truly appreciate any advice you experts can offer. I'm feeling pretty dumb right now. The only consolation is that both BPs seem to be healthy, though one hasn't eaten since the end of October.

[Inarikins]

BPs are terrestrial snakes. Measuring your temps at the top of your cage does them no good. Ambients should be measured near the bottom of the cage. You want your hot spot thermometerprobe on the bottom of the tank, preferably under their hide. I hot glue mine down and don't usually have a problem with my girl pulling them off (She's the only one not in a rack ATM, just a tub). You want your thermostat probe between the UTH and the tank glass. I don't have any experience with heat lamps of any kind so I'm no use there, but I can help you get your UTH situation under control.

And don't worry about the one that hasn't eaten since October. It's breeding season and they're adult males. A lot go off feed this time of the year.

[nighttrain_1991]

Fellow newbie here and I have the same set up a 40 gal critter cage. And I suffer from temp and humidity problems as well. I live in Michigan so it's 30 degrees or less right now and other than when I'm at work in the summer my house is rarely over 70. The uths just haven't worked for me. At first I had it on full without a thermostat and when I took surface temps with an IR gun I was getting 90-95 so I thought I was good. After reading through several posts here I checked the temps at the glass with no substrate and found they were 130+. Now I've never seen my snake burrow but didn't want to take the risk. Once I got my 500R thermostat I hooked it up to the uth and when set to 90 it didn't raise temp at all on the substrate. Even cranked all the way up, about 110, it wouldn't get it up to 80. Currently I have a 150 watt che on the hot side hooked to the thermostat and a 100 watt che on the cool side that stay on all the time. This is the best system I have come up with so far, but it is far from perfect, not super consistent and requires a lot of maintenance. I keep the rest of the screen top covered with damp towels to maintain humidity. As I'm sure you are aware it's a pain to move everything whenever you want to get into the tank.

Now believe me I know how much money you've got invested as I've got more bulbs and other things floating around then I know what to do with in my failed attempts to get conditions right. I have not gotten one yet (should be ordering this weekend), but what I would reccommend is that you look at the animalplastics.com site at the T-8 enclosure. Yes, it's going to cost you some money up front, but ultimately I think it will save you money and most definitely aggravation. Using the divider you can house both snakes in one enclosure and it will be a much cleaner look since you won't have all the clutter on top. The front sliding doors make access easier. There are several threads on here about the enclosure that you can check out. You can heat using flex watt heat tape or radiant heat panels (RHPs) or a combo depending on your needs. From what I've heard the people there are great to deal with. If you call them and describe your conditions I'm sure they can reccommend the ideal set up. The critter cages are nice, and I think they would work great for desert species like bearded dragons or leopard geckos and the like, but they are not well suited for bps. You could repurpose them or probably sell them on craigslist to recoup some of your loss. In the long run, remeber bps live 30+years, I think the T-8 will be more economical to maintain. Just my two scents from a fellow newbie. Good luck.

[BPGuy]

BPs are terrestrial snakes. Measuring your temps at the top of your cage does them no good. Ambients should be measured near the bottom of the cage. You want your hot spot thermometerprobe on the bottom of the tank, preferably under their hide. I hot glue mine down and don't usually have a problem with my girl pulling them off (She's the only one not in a rack ATM, just a tub). You want your thermostat probe between the UTH and the tank glass. I don't have any experience with heat lamps of any kind so I'm no use there, but I can help you get your UTH situation under control.

And don't worry about the one that hasn't eaten since October. It's breeding season and they're adult males. A lot go off feed this time of the year.

I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying you hot glue the thermometer probe to the glass under the hide (so the probe is covered by the substrate)? If so, how do you make sure the snake doesn't get caught in the probe's cord (do you glue the cord to the wall of the tank)? Also, when you say you put thermostate probe between the UTH and the tank glass, are you saying that the probe goes on the bottom (outside) of the tank between the UTH and the glass? If so, I'm not going to be able to do that because I've already attached the UTH to the tank and unattaching it ruins it.

If I attach the thermometer probes directly to the glass, under the substrate (and under the hides), what temperatures should I be shooting for?

Thanks for your response.

[BPGuy]

Fellow newbie here and I have the same set up a 40 gal critter cage. And I suffer from temp and humidity problems as well. I live in Michigan so it's 30 degrees or less right now and other than when I'm at work in the summer my house is rarely over 70. The uths just haven't worked for me. At first I had it on full without a thermostat and when I took surface temps with an IR gun I was getting 90-95 so I thought I was good. After reading through several posts here I checked the temps at the glass with no substrate and found they were 130+. Now I've never seen my snake burrow but didn't want to take the risk. Once I got my 500R thermostat I hooked it up to the uth and when set to 90 it didn't raise temp at all on the substrate. Even cranked all the way up, about 110, it wouldn't get it up to 80. Currently I have a 150 watt che on the hot side hooked to the thermostat and a 100 watt che on the cool side that stay on all the time. This is the best system I have come up with so far, but it is far from perfect, not super consistent and requires a lot of maintenance. I keep the rest of the screen top covered with damp towels to maintain humidity. As I'm sure you are aware it's a pain to move everything whenever you want to get into the tank.

Now believe me I know how much money you've got invested as I've got more bulbs and other things floating around then I know what to do with in my failed attempts to get conditions right. I have not gotten one yet (should be ordering this weekend), but what I would reccommend is that you look at the animalplastics.com site at the T-8 enclosure. Yes, it's going to cost you some money up front, but ultimately I think it will save you money and most definitely aggravation. Using the divider you can house both snakes in one enclosure and it will be a much cleaner look since you won't have all the clutter on top. The front sliding doors make access easier. There are several threads on here about the enclosure that you can check out. You can heat using flex watt heat tape or radiant heat panels (RHPs) or a combo depending on your needs. From what I've heard the people there are great to deal with. If you call them and describe your conditions I'm sure they can reccommend the ideal set up. The critter cages are nice, and I think they would work great for desert species like bearded dragons or leopard geckos and the like, but they are not well suited for bps. You could repurpose them or probably sell them on craigslist to recoup some of your loss. In the long run, remeber bps live 30+years, I think the T-8 will be more economical to maintain. Just my two scents from a fellow newbie. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. In the category of "I wish I knew then what I know now" insert, "Don't get a glass tank tank with a screen tank, especially if you live in a dry desert climate like Phoenix!" I've tried the wet towels on the screen, but was having to wet the towels twice a day and don't have time to do that. I subsequently did something a little different. First, I covered about 75% of the screen with plastic wrap, leaving only one end of the screen open for the CHE. I then took pieces of cardboard (from old boxes), covered them in aluminum foil, and put the aluminum foil-covered cardboard on top of the plastic wrap (to act as a insulator). When I realized there was a gap between the screen and the plastic wrap, I slid the cardboard pieces under the plastic wrap (so the cardboard is between the plastic wrap and the screen). That has worked okay at keeping the humidity in. Now, I can spray every day and sometimes go two days between spraying, but it is far from perfect.

I just looked at the Animal Plastics T8. It looks really nice, and right now they are discounting the sliding door T8 by $30 (to $150). Any opinion as to the sliding door T8 versus the swinging door T8 (which is not on sale)? Do you really think a single T8 is big enough for two adult BPs?

How does flex watt heat tape work? I've seen in mentioned here many, many times, but I haven't been able to figure out what exactly it is. For example, is it a name brand or a generic type of heat source?

[Inarikins]

I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying you hot glue the thermometer probe to the glass under the hide (so the probe is covered by the substrate)? If so, how do you make sure the snake doesn't get caught in the probe's cord (do you glue the cord to the wall of the tank)? Also, when you say you put thermostate probe between the UTH and the tank glass, are you saying that the probe goes on the bottom (outside) of the tank between the UTH and the glass? If so, I'm not going to be able to do that because I've already attached the UTH to the tank and unattaching it ruins it.

If I attach the thermometer probes directly to the glass, under the substrate (and under the hides), what temperatures should I be shooting for?

Thanks for your response.

Yes. I haven't had a problem so far with her getting tangled in it, but I also run the bulk of my thermometer probe's cord outside the tub since I can just make holes in the plastic. You could, just keep in mind that every time you do a deep clean of your cage (I do mine once a month - empty it all out, scrub, dry, refill with substrate) you'll have to glue it down again. Just don't use tape - your snake can and will get stuck on it no matter how secure you think it is then you're going to be freaking out about trying to get the tape off without hurting your snake and that's never fun to deal with.

I think there's a way to remove a UTH without harming it, but I'm not sure of the procedure. Maybe somebody else can help you there. You want to aim for your thermometer reading 88-92 degrees on the hot spot. Colder and they can't digest or warm themselves properly and too hot you risk burning your snake.

If your room temps are stable, you can always plug your UTH into a lamp dimmer, you'll just have to watch it much more closely than a thermostat. Depending on your thermostat as well, you might be able to place your thermostat probe directly inside the tub, where you would put your thermometer probe. It's not recommended because if your snake pees or poops on it it can really mess up your probe, the temps, or both.

[nighttrain_1991]

Flexwatt is a name brand I believe, but it basically is the same thing as a uth. It's basically like the heat mat you buy at a pet store it's just not encased in the rubber or whatever. Also I think it's specifically geared towards reptiles and won't get as hot as some of the matts can. Personally I think I'm just going to go with the RHPs. They are more expensive but just seems like they would work better to me. I figured I would call when I go to order and ask them what they think the best set up is. They don't sell RHPs so it's not like they are trying to make extra money by pushing something you don't need. If you set it up for two snakes you put the flexwatt in the middle. There is actuallay a cut out in the bottom so it sits flush. They also cut a channel for the temp probe. So you might be able to go with the flex watt for the hot side and then an RHP to help with ambient. To me it seems like the uths only work if you use paper towel or newspaper or something really thin as substrate. If you use aspen or cypress or something it seems to be too much of an insulator. But there are a lot of people on here that have them that can tell you more about them. And everyone i've talked to has confirmed that it is big enough for two. A lot of people keep them in tubs. It's counter intuitive to what we think most animals would like, but the truth is these are nocturnal animals that spend a lot of there time in a rodent hole or termite mound. They like small tight spaces that make them feel secure. A lot of people that do tanks keep adults in a 20L vs the 40 that we have.

[Inarikins]

Yes, unless you have a very large adult female, you can keep two adults in one divided T8 comfortably. If you have a chillier house (like I do) you might need a RHP and a UTH, as the RHP won't make a hot spot, it'll just raise your ambients. If your house is warm, just the UTH. Also, as UTH is short for 'Under Tank Heater' anything that goes under the enclosure to produce heat is considered a UTH, not just the mats or the heat tape.

[BPGuy]

Yes, unless you have a very large adult female, you can keep two adults in one divided T8 comfortably. If you have a chillier house (like I do) you might need a RHP and a UTH, as the RHP won't make a hot spot, it'll just raise your ambients. If your house is warm, just the UTH. Also, as UTH is short for 'Under Tank Heater' anything that goes under the enclosure to produce heat is considered a UTH, not just the mats or the heat tape.

What would you consider to be a "warm" house? My house gets down to 68 during the winter but can be as warm as 82 during the summer. Based on this information, would you recommend a RHP, a UTH, or both if I go with a T8?

I understand that it is important to have a thermal gradient. How important is it, though, that the temperatures for the cool spot and hot spot be as recommended in the care sheet? For example, is it more important to have a hot spot that it is the 88-92 range than to have a cool spot that it is in the 80-84 range? In other words, if my hot spot is in the 88-92 range but my cool spot is, say in the 68-72 range, is that acceptable? Or, do I really need to heat both sides of the tank (as I'm doing now) to try to keep once side at 88-92 and the other at 80-84?

BTW, I called Animal Plastics earlier today (after my last posts) and spoke with Ali. As nearly everyone else here has indicated, she was extremely helpful. More and more, I am liking the idea of a single T8 with divider to hold our two BPs. The questions at this point are whether it will fit on the counter where one of the 40 gallon tanks is currently located (I know there is no way it will fit on the dresser where the other tank is located) and how much it will cost me to fully equip the T8. Ali said that if I opt for RHPs, I should contact Pro Products so I've sent them an e-mail requesting information as to sizing and pricing. Any other RHPs that I should consider if I go with a T8? Also, can two large Reptile Basics hides fit in one side of a T8 if the T8 has a divider?

[nighttrain_1991]

In other words, if my hot spot is in the 88-92 range but my cool spot is, say in the 68-72 range, is that acceptable? Or, do I really need to heat both sides of the tank (as I'm doing now) to try to keep once side at 88-92 and the other at 80-84?


No. 68-72 is much too cold. 77-78 is about a cool as you could go. Sounds like you would want both uth and rhp and then you might only need to use the rhp in the winter. If you haven't already check out the thread that is stickied about hot to set up a t-8. It is very well written with pictures of the set up how and where to install the probe thermometers etc. Then you could try pming the author of that thread with specifics. The dimensions for the unit are approximately 4ft by two ft, so each side would be 2 X 2. Look at the dimentions of the hides, but I'm guessing they fit since it seems to be the hide of choice with people on here.

Also one other possibility for your current set up that I've heard mention here is to get a piece of plexiglass cut to fit the top of the screen, cut out a hole for your dome light and drill a few holes for air flow. Will do a very good job holding heat and moisture and I think give it a cleaner look. Also depending on what you are currently using you might switch to cypress mulch for your substrate.