Quality of breeding stock

[Royal Hijinx]

So, this whole Pewter/Sterling debacle in the other thread has got me on a path of thought.

Let us talk about future breeding stock.

Ever wonder why you cannot find a nice Enchi or Pastel (or whatever)? IMO the simple answer is a lot of folks just breed whatever quality of stock together and then sell off the numerous sub par examples.

IMO your breeding stock should consist of the highest quality examples you can FIND. You notice I did not say AFFORD. Meaning, that if all you can afford is a poor example, you need to save up and keep looking. You are better off starting with super high quality, but less expensive morphs (ex. Spider), than trying to get the cheapest of the next level for breeding. Or just exercise patience and keep looking.

Furthermore if you EVER question if the snake is even the morph is it purported to be, then DO NOT BUY IT for breeding. All snakes make great pets and we need to as a group come to grips that some are pet quality and some are breeder quality. A nicer example SHOULD cost you more. Luckily it does not always, and that is great.

(I understand there are a handful of "ugly" snakes that throw great babies, these are not the rule)

I will take the last thought a step further and say that if you have to come on a message board and ask if something is a good example, then probably should not buy it either. I say this for two reasons:

1. Probably not a stunner if you have ask us if it is one.
2. You may need to do more research on the morph so you can formulate your own opinion.

That may sound harsh, but lack of research into a project causes a lot of issues IMO.

I bring this up because not every breeder can afford to get in on the latest hot shot project, but EVERY breeder can think in a line breeding mentality and always strive for the best end product. Whether that be the cleanest Enchi, or the busiest Clown, there are a lot a accepted variations within a morph and many have their own specific audience.

A lot of folks try to hide behind the idea that we cannot decide what is the best example of a morph because of natural variation. I disagree with that and I think the market often times makes the decision for us. There is a reason there are more HC Albino now than dull ones. The market dictated that folks wanted HC and it was bred for. For a newer morph YOU could be the one to help dictating that by breeding the best examples of whatever trait floats your boat.

Anyway, I know this is a long ramble that may not make a ton of sense, but here it is. My manifesto for today.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to spirited discussion on the matter.

[Royal Hijinx]

Oh and here is a picture of a pretty snake to make up for all the words:

[satomi325]

I agree with everything you said. Well said.

The other day, a new member said base morph quality had nothing to do with it affecting the look of combos or homozygous (super) forms and that having a 'standard' shouldn't matter. It really upset me. That kind of mindset is the reason why there are so many muddy 'low quality' animals out there.

I think we should also include normals in the the mindset of 'breed the best example' as well. I know not everyone really thinks about the normal females they are pairing. But it makes a difference in offspring.
There are a few people out there, like Gale or Robin, who's normals are excellent examples. And it really shows up in their breedings.

This will help improve quality as well.

[Kodieh]

I agree, I stayed out of that thread but if you threw together a browned out pastel and a poor spider, you're going to pop out poor pastels, poor spiders, and even worse bees. A bee is not a bee is not a bee. You breed quality to make quality, simple fact.

I never understood payment plans for live animals, perhaps that's a step further than your argument, but I really don't get that. It saves everyone time around the table if you just watch and then when you have the money to send a payment directly in full start shopping around.

[Royal Hijinx]

I have not problem with payment plans as long s they work well for the buyer and seller. Sometimes that is a way for the someone to step up in quality before a specific snake is gone.

[Kodieh]

I imagine most people are taken aback by some people non refundable deposit. I'd require 25 percent of the total price of the animal to hold an animal. And anything over 90 days would be subject to upkeep fees.
But that's just me, I don't think I'll be breeding anything THAT desirable ever or for a long time. At least I won't be producing two genes until single genes are scarce, haha.

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[Annarose15]

I have not problem with payment plans as long s they work well for the buyer and seller. Sometimes that is a way for the someone to step up in quality before a specific snake is gone.

x2 all the way. There are a few animals in my racks that I would have missed out on if the breeder wasn't willing to let me get a few paychecks in before he/she was paid in full. It also helped me keep my credit card out of the equation and free to use for emergencies, which is their purpose (IMO). My longest payment plan took 60 days (official plan was 3 months), and it was too hot to ship during that time, so the breeder would have been holding and feeding him until conditions were better, anyway.

Oh, and I would never balk at a nonrefundable deposit (although some do). IMO, the breeder is doing me a favor, so I am happy to give them the reassurance of compensation for taking my animal off the market.

[nimblykimbly]

I completely agree with everything you said, BUT.... how can new breeders learn and grow if we can't come on here and ask 'the pros' your opinion on a snake? This is my first year breeding, and although I have racked my brain for hours, days, weeks, MONTHS!! some things I still have questions about. I want to breed quality morphs. I want to do the right thing. I am an honest person who has morals. I have saved up, done payment plans, etc. and I 'feel' that I have purchased very nice quality morphs to pair up... heck, I think all of my snakes are purty. But I do feel that you can go about things the right way and still question your own judgement on a snake and want others' input, and there's nothing wrong with that! I guess my point is - I don't think it's wrong to ask opinions on the quality of a snake, after all we can learn and grow from it... but use some discretion first. Don't just find a snake and plop it up here on the forum and ask if it's a good one. Do your homework first, educate yourself if you really want to try to be a good breeder, and IF you're still truly unsure, THEN ask


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[Royal Hijinx]

I completely agree with everything you said, BUT.... how can new breeders learn and grow if we can't come on here and ask 'the pros' your opinion on a snake? This is my first year breeding, and although I have racked my brain for hours, days, weeks, MONTHS!! some things I still have questions about. I want to breed quality morphs. I want to do the right thing. I am an honest person who has morals. I have saved up, done payment plans, etc. and I 'feel' that I have purchased very nice quality morphs to pair up... heck, I think all of my snakes are purty. But I do feel that you can go about things the right way and still question your own judgement on a snake and want others' input, and there's nothing wrong with that! I guess my point is - I don't think it's wrong to ask opinions on the quality of a snake, after all we can learn and grow from it... but use some discretion first. Don't just find a snake and plop it up here on the forum and ask if it's a good one. Do your homework first, educate yourself if you really want to try to be a good breeder, and IF you're still truly unsure, THEN ask


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I am by no means discouraging asking about things. I am talking about further down the line when you are selecting your actual breeding stock. And you make the very good point of discretion. You should basically have most of it worked out already and are asking for some final "Yay/Nay" clarification.

It is easier to just plop up a snake and ask everyone's opinion than it is to do the research and look to what YOU want. So, that is what a lot of new folks will do.

This is also my first year breeding (but not my first keeping). For every hour I have been on here asking questions, I have spent at least twice that reading, researching, speaking to people directly etc... And I am still by no means an expert on anything.

In the end, the main point of my rant is: If you want to be a top notch breeder (nothing to with the number of animals or the newness of your morphs) you need to be selective in your breeding stock. We cannot stop OTHER folks from pairing every snake they can get in the same room, but WE can strive to make things better and to advance breeding projects.

[nimblykimbly]

I am by no means discouraging asking about things. I am talking about further down the line when you are selecting your actual breeding stock. And you make the very good point of discretion. You should basically have most of it worked out already and are asking for some final "Yay/Nay" clarification.

It is easier to just plop up a snake and ask everyone's opinion than it is to do the research and look to what YOU want. So, that is what a lot of new folks will do.

This is also my first year breeding (but not my first keeping). For every hour I have been on here asking questions, I have spent at least twice that reading, researching, speaking to people directly etc... And I am still by no means an expert on anything.

In the end, the main point of my rant is: If you want to be a top notch breeder (nothing to with the number of animals or the newness of your morphs) you need to be selective in your breeding stock. We cannot stop OTHER folks from pairing every snake they can get in the same room, but WE can strive to make things better and to advance breeding projects.

You're right, it is a lot easier to simply post a pic and get the pros' input... and lazier Unfortunately, even as new as I am, I see A LOT of low-quality flooding in the BP market and people wonder why it seems like the market is in decline. I think (and hope) that it's temporary and will just weed out those who are simply in it for $$ with no regard to their snakes or quality. It's because unfortunately there are more 'puppymill breeders' (I use the term as an example) than there are true quality breeders. It's a shame. Perhaps we need to adopt the 'pet quality vs breeder quality' notion like dog breeders do.

I hear ya... I have spent beyond countless hours infinity (lol) researching, to the point of my brain and eyes hurting, and my husband asking me 'if I'm going to get off the computer this week at all'. ...and I STILL know 'nothing'.... lol

^^^^ that in bold.... YES!