Is it worth it? Cinny x Cinny

[PiercingPrincess]

Hi,
I'm fairly new to collecting and breeding ball pythons and after consulting google and forum after forum getting unclear answers I figured it would be best to talk to try and get a wider group of opinions and answers.
I resently aquired a Cinnamon pair from someone who had the intent to breed them. She changed her mind and put them up for sale where I purchaced them. She got both of them from seperate breeders at two different Toronto expos, but does not remember which, or know which lines they come from.
People keep warning the effects of breeding a pair of cinnamons, but I'm curious what my risks would actually be. Realistically it wouldn't hurt the adults, but dealing with the possible outcome of the babies is a possibility. But don't breeders always take some risk when it comes to breeding any combo? Or even humans when we have kids not knowing how the child could come out? Because clearly there has been some success if other breeders and hobbiest do have Super Cinnamons and other Cinnamon combos; but more often then not I keep hearing about the deformities and deaths of the babies. I'm not sure if this is because people rather see the glass half empty rather then full.
I was hoping for a little bit of advice or inslight as to what I should do or exepect. I talked with a breeder in my area who had two super cinnies that were perfectly fine, while some other breeders he knows had little success this year. I know black pastels are an alternative but I have yet to find any available in my area at all.
Either way I'm torn and need a second opinion.

[Simple Man]

Hi,
I'm fairly new to collecting and breeding ball pythons and after consulting google and forum after forum getting unclear answers I figured it would be best to talk to try and get a wider group of opinions and answers.
I resently aquired a Cinnamon pair from someone who had the intent to breed them. She changed her mind and put them up for sale where I purchaced them. She got both of them from seperate breeders at two different Toronto expos, but does not remember which, or know which lines they come from.
People keep warning the effects of breeding a pair of cinnamons, but I'm curious what my risks would actually be. Realistically it wouldn't hurt the adults, but dealing with the possible outcome of the babies is a possibility. But don't breeders always take some risk when it comes to breeding any combo? Or even humans when we have kids not knowing how the child could come out? Because clearly there has been some success if other breeders and hobbiest do have Super Cinnamons and other Cinnamon combos; but more often then not I keep hearing about the deformities and deaths of the babies. I'm not sure if this is because people rather see the glass half empty rather then full.
I was hoping for a little bit of advice or inslight as to what I should do or exepect. I talked with a breeder in my area who had two super cinnies that were perfectly fine, while some other breeders he knows had little success this year. I know black pastels are an alternative but I have yet to find any available in my area at all.
Either way I'm torn and need a second opinion.

It sounds like you are looking for someone to justify breeding the pair. You seem to know about the potential risks and have been told what the outcome would be. So obviously you need to decide if you are prepared to handle the potential problems that can occur with this type of a breeding. There is always potential for problems. You see a handful of Supers but how many were euthanized in the same clutches? There are sometimes things that you don't realize happening behind the scenes.

Are you capable of euthanizing an animal?

If not, are you prepared to keep and take care of an animal that might have special needs?

Black Pastels can have the same issue so there really isn't an easy fix. This is a potential problem with these types of pairings. You can either deal with it or move on to a different project/pairing. It sounds like you have the information you need to make that decision. You just need to make the decision based on what you can handle.

Regards,

B

[Don]

You might want to check out this link: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/

[Anatopism]

Do a search for kinking black pastels and you'll see that even black pastel x black pastel (or black pastel X cinnamon) have the chance for severe genetic abnormalities/defects. Black pastels are not immune to any genetic problems as some people seem to think they are. Some people prefer a black pastel super to a cinnamon super as they say it results in a darker animal, but others prefer the cinnamon combos and supers. (I pick my cinnamons carefully, and prefer light cinnamons for light combos). As for whether it's worth the risk of a super, is up to you to decide. I've been struggling with the same issue, with my two Cin het pieds (My personal decision is to move away from the project and work on clown combos ). Some people will consider you a monster of even considering it, and others will applaud a successful clutch if one happens.


Here are a couple threads I was able to dig up regarding super cin/Black pastel kinking/duckbilling, and I remember at least one other thread being posted within the last few months, that other people may be able to dig up -

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...x-black-pastel

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...p/t-38683.html

[TJ_Burton]

You might want to check out this link: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/

Reptilescanada.com is currently updating the website so you won't be able to see the article there.
I did post a version of it here on bp.net as well, less some of the more graphic photos: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...52#post1920952

I have had a few big breeders send me pics of their super cins and super cin combos from this season that do not show a lick of deformity. Obviously it is in my best interest to believe that the results I found were not linked to super cins (as I have more than 5 in my collection), however all the other snakes in the clutch were unaffected. At bare minimum this shows that the super cinnamons are genetically weaker than the average ball python morph/combo.
Because I don't spend every waking moment beside the incubator, I can not say for certain that there was not some form of anomaly that interrupted normal incubation, only that if there was, it happened while I was not present or in between the 3 to 4 "incubator checks" I perform each day (out of habit and excitement more than anything).

Long story short: If you are ok with the idea of hatching out some Slinkys, and that breeding to hit a potentially weak combo doesn't cross your moral boundary, than have at it.

[snakesRkewl]

There is potential to make flawed snakes in many pairings.

We are shooting for super blacks again this season after having the female not give us eggs last year.
We know the risks and are prepared for whatever comes, hopefully perfect little black snakes.

When you breed a spider/spider combo you should know the risks involved, wobbling corkscrewing train wrecks happen, but it doesn't stop too many from continuing to breed them.
Super lesser/butter are another one, they have issues, powerballs also, many different morphs have issues.