Thin Hatchling - HELP!

[MrLang]

I'll ask my main question up front since I think I know what the response to the rest will be and don't want to scare off with multiple walls of text.

I picked up a tiny mojo on 6/24. I have attempted feeding 2 times unsuccessfully with FT hoppers. One attempt she struck and coiled and then quickly dropped it and retreated. According to the seller it had eaten 5 times total at 1 week intervals and hasn't needed an assist. I think the last feeding date was 6/19. Here's a picture of the snake that I was sent before purchase: Even here you can notice kind of a wimpy tail, but the snake is clearly full of food.

Here are some pics from the day I picked her up. She's tense, so it really changes the way she looks here. The belly is perfectly flat for the over the top shot. She was a little 'flat' when she was balled up, and again when I snapped these pictures, but even in the second you can see the peak of the spine a bit behind the head. The tail is tucked under her body, but I remember it looked a little wimpy.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...09#post1858709

I took a look at her last night (been trying to leave her alone as much as possible) as she cruised her tub and she is really looking quite thin. The base of the tail where a lot of animals store fat is very narrow and almost twice as high vertically as it is wide for about 2 inches from the tip. The back starts 'peaking' maybe 2 inches down her neck and has a somewhat triangular shape overall. When I picked her up, I noticed a little bit of looseness to the skin where her belly was leaning over the edge of my hand. I didn't take pics because I was trying to make the whole thing as quick and stressless as possible. I did weigh her and she weighed 82g. I really thought she looked like more than that. Time to make a thread...

My first and main question: based on what you read above, if I attempt a feeding with a live hopper unsuccessfully, should I just kill it and assist feed on the spot? Should I make that attempt today (a day after the last failed FT attempt) or wait a few more days?

Now the part maybe not everyone wants/will read:

Seller setup: 6 qt tub, paper towel, water bowl
My setup: 15 qt tub, paper towel, water bowl, 2 hides, fake ivy vine over the whole tub (trying to shrink the space a little bit like you would with crumpled newspaper)

Temps 81/90 - Humidity 60 - 70%

I attempted feeding 2 days after I got her (all of my other snakes have taken at that time) and got her to strike the FT hopper once and strike and coil a second time. When I went to slide the drawer back in she dropped it in the water bowl and peaced out... I left the hopper overnight at the entrance to a hide. No go.

The second attempt was last night (1 week after the last). She showed 0 interest in the hopper and just keeps trying to climb straight out of the tub without fear (or overwhelmed by it) every time I open it.

The snake is quite active. I see it during the day cruising the tub a lot. I expected that to slow down after a week, but it's still every day after almost 2. Both times I attempted feeding the snake was already out and about, fully extended across the tub and nosing at the upper edge in an attempt to escape.

In an ideal world I'd simply give it more time, attempt a hopper live, attempt a rat pup live, etc. but I haven't dealt with a small snake before and if it really has eaten 5 times and is 85g, then I know something is up. I guess I'm wondering if I should just assist feed as the body condition is a little concerning and worry about getting it to eat etc. in a few weeks over time or should I relax and keep trying other options every 4 or 5 days?

I'm also not responding to any nonsense about the seller. It's here nor there for the purpose of this thread. I'm going to contact him and see if I can get some hatch weights to compare against.

[Homegrownscales]

85g and had eaten 5 times over a period of 5 weeks? Maybe can't say that it's impossible.She was an awfully tiny hatchling then. I've had some little ones out of the egg at 81-88g this year. She doesn't look emaciated which is good. But she does sound stressed. The refusals and the cruising the tub all the time tell you that. Here's what I would do.
Black out the tub. Either spray paint the outside, or cover it with heavy construction paper.
Leave her for a couple days after that.
Try feeding with a live mouse hopper.
I wouldnt say it's time to assist yet.
Well good luck with her.


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[Annarose15]

85g and had eaten 5 times over a period of 5 weeks? Maybe can't say that it's impossible.She was an awfully tiny hatchling then. I've had some little ones out of the egg at 81-88g this year. She doesn't look emaciated which is good. But she does sound stressed. The refusals and the cruising the tub all the time tell you that. Here's what I would do.
Black out the tub. Either spray paint the outside, or cover it with heavy construction paper.
Leave her for a couple days after that.
Try feeding with a live mouse hopper.
I wouldnt say it's time to assist yet.
Well good luck with her.

To add to this: Replace her paper towels with aspen and crumpled up newspaper, and remove the vines (they'll be hard to clean if she poos on them). If she has a bunch of extra space inside her hides, reduce it some with more newspaper crumples. Wait a few days as noted above and leave a live mouse hopper or fuzzy rat in with her overnight. I agree that it isn't time to assist yet. If she has eaten in the past, then she knows what food is, which would usually be the only reason to assist a hatchling. You need to determine/remove the source of her stress that is preventing her from eating (like her whole tub moving after she grabbed her prey ).

[MrLang]

At what point do I determine that she's emaciated? If she hits 80g? 75g?

Is there a behavior that will tip me off? The behavior right now is kind of distressing...

My concern is that even though in the first picture the snake clearly has something in its belly, if I'm being told it has eaten once a week without assist 1 hopper each time but the snake weighs 85g... can I even be sure it ate the meal in the picture on its own or any other meals besides that one? Can it even be that plump from the yolk?

I'll black it out, change to aspen and crumped newspaper, and leave her till Sunday and try again with a live hopper.

I'm really just looking for cues as to WHEN to resort to assist feeding - and without making assumptions about when or how many times the snake has eaten and whether or not it was by its own will. Let's throw that data out the window except for the picture where it's clear it has ingested food.

[aalomon]

At what point do I determine that she's emaciated? If she hits 80g? 75g?

Is there a behavior that will tip me off? The behavior right now is kind of distressing...

My concern is that even though in the first picture the snake clearly has something in its belly, if I'm being told it has eaten once a week without assist 1 hopper each time but the snake weighs 85g... can I even be sure it ate the meal in the picture on its own or any other meals besides that one? Can it even be that plump from the yolk?

I'll black it out, change to aspen and crumped newspaper, and leave her till Sunday and try again with a live hopper.

I'm really just looking for cues as to WHEN to resort to assist feeding - and without making assumptions about when or how many times the snake has eaten and whether or not it was by its own will. Let's throw that data out the window except for the picture where it's clear it has ingested food.

That definitely isnt egg yolk plump in the first pic. When they still have egg yolk bellies they look like they have a soft squishy spot along their bellies. As for 5 meals, thats definitely possible. I had a clutch of smaller babies this year that hatched between 50-60g.

There really isnt any way to tell if she had been assist fed in the pic or taken it on her own, however Id guess that she ate on her own. From what youve posted she seems really stressed so Id bet thats why shes not eating. The advise above (using aspen, blacking out....) is great advice and i think itll really help.

Telling a baby snake is emaciated is pretty easy. The biggest thing to look for is their face will really thin out, Ive seen CH imports where their head was almost corn snake shaped it was so thin. She will also get a triangular look to her when she is completely relaxed that goes up her entire spine. Thats when you should be concerned.

Also remember, if you do decide to assist feed use something much smaller than you would normally feed. I had to assist feed a baby this year that hadnt absorbed all her yolk and I started with a pinky mouse.

[h00blah]

My killerbee was 61 grams when I bought her. After a month of weekly feedings of mice, she was 88 grams.

She didn't want to take f/t mice or rat fuzzies yet, so I had her on live mice for a month, then switched her to f/t mice no problem. Then onto rat fuzzies... Now she's taking small rats..

Her weight doesn't seem too bad. Her body doesn't look bad in that photo. In fact, my baby normal looked thinner than the snake in the photo, and she did great.

Try LIVE mice. You said she would strike and constrict, but then leave it alone.. My spider did this until I got him some LIVE rats.. He struck, constricted, and ate just fine.

[RestlessRobie]

X2 on the live mouse hopper something about the way they move seems to drive my picky eaters to a good feed response

[MrLang]

Telling a baby snake is emaciated is pretty easy. The biggest thing to look for is their face will really thin out, Ive seen CH imports where their head was almost corn snake shaped it was so thin. She will also get a triangular look to her when she is completely relaxed that goes up her entire spine. Thats when you should be concerned.

Thanks. She still has chubby cheeks but as I said in the description, the spine is a little bit angular. When I just went home I slid the tub open and snapped these 2 terrible pics because, sure enough, she was cruising around. She was draped over the top of the hide but laying flat and relaxed... which was a little weird.

Like every time I slide the tub open, she raises her head and looks right at me. Not really aggressive, but kind of reminds me of a begging dog.

There's a lighter in the tub there for comparison.

[gsarchie]

What I will add is this:
You mentioned storing fat in the tail. At that size they will put every ounce of food that you give them into growing and will not worry about storing any fat (not a conscious choice, obviously, just what babies do). They really won't start to fill out until they are are a good bit older/larger. All the advice that I've seen so far has been great, especially blacking out the tub, filling extra space in the tubs and feeding live. Good luck and keep us updated.

[rabernet]

I agree with everything that Anna suggested. And your most recent pictures - I would not assist feed at this point.