Ever think that my spider may be more adapted to this world then your normal?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Wow, quite a stretch huh? Not really. Think about it.

Spider: a base genetic mutation that is clearly on a different level than any other naturally occurring morph. It is a mutation that affects both the mind and body. How on earth did they live in the wild? Surely they must have lived... I mean, where did the first one come from?

Ah, how we humans are so quick to point out differences amongst the masses and consider anything out of the ordinary as wrong...

Ever hear this one?

"Man! Did you see that sick spiders head shake? It seems like every time he gets either really scared or really worked up, he shakes his head. When he is eating he REALLY gets worked up!!!!"

Got to love these:

"Yes, I know that the spider syndrome is a genetic DEFECT, and its behavior is obviously sign of a disorder. I promise my spider doesn't shake or do anything funny at all. He is perfect unlike all your retarded spiders"

A personal favorite:

"I got this friend, of a friend, of a brothers friend that had a baby spider ball python that wobbled and corkscrewed so bad that it couldn't eat on its own. They eventually had to put it down."



How about this from an experienced ball python owner with multiple animals:

"My spiders and spider combos are the best eaters in my entire collection. Sometimes it might take them a while but wow! He eats almost every single time"

Hmmm... that’s a good thing right?

"When my spider gets hungry he kind of star gazes at night. He sticks his head up and corkscrews a little... sometimes he shakes right after that.. It is kind of like he is doing some kind of dance"

Can't remember the thread, but it was once shown that a wild ball pythons stomach autopsy revealed that ball pythons were mostly eating birds. Interesting.......

Ever consider that maybe the spiders pattern and corkscrewing may have been helpful to him in attracting prey? Is that too outrageous to consider? I suggest you check out the discovery channel a little more often. You will see that different animal species do some pretty crazy stuff to attract mates and food.

I think it is no coincidences that most experienced keepers say that their spiders or spider combos are excellent feeders. Let’s face it, in some ways they are just better adapted to hunt...

Sure you will hear "My spider is a horrible feeder"... or "A friend of a friend (or I) had a spider that corkscrewed so bad that he had to be put down." But think about this, how many spiders are there out there now? And how often do you hear these complaints? Not very often.

I suggest that the spider morph is a relative to the normal type ball python that took a different evolutionary path. Both relatives have thier strengths and weaknesses... but both must have worked well enough for us to be able to find them in the wild like we did.

Don't be so quick to think that their quirky behavior is a defect. I know quite a few snake species that as a primary defense shake their tales. Some of the top predators even shake their heads. Why is it so hard to imagine that the spider wobble is not an evolutionary trait?

Show any non snake person a spider when it is wobbling. Tell them to touch it. They will look at you like your crazy and say "I aint touching that thing, It will bite me!!!" Wow, it is pretty intimidating behavior isn't it? No way could they use a trait like that in the wild...

Right?

[BigJ]

Very interesting thought Mike. I had never thought about that, but it makes perfect sense. The two things you always hear about spiders are their wobble, and their feeding response compared to others.

I for one would love to know exactly where they were originally found in the wild, that could tell a lot!

[The Serpent Merchant]

They all come from the same part of Africa

[RobNJ]

I suggest that the spider morph is a relative to the normal type ball python that took a different evolutionary path. Both relatives have thier strengths and weaknesses... but both must have worked well enough for us to be able to find them in the wild like we did.

I am completely following you on this Mike, and find your perspective very interesting and well thought out...however, I just don't find myself convinced. I'm not one to call any irregularity a genetic defect, as so many morphs are well suited(color/pattern) for living in the wild. Your suggestion of spiders taking a different evolutionary path could only be determined by surveys and statistical data. I don't think that them being found in the wild is enough to go on, as many of our morphs came from the wild.

Although it may not be a worthwhile study, it would be an interesting one for sure...to survey spider bp populations vs. normals/wildtypes/various other wild morphs, see if there are any differences in prey of choice between them, etc...

All that said, I like spiders, and I don't mind their wobble. They are fascinating on their own and make incredible combos...the wobble, be it neurological defect or evolutionary gain, is part of the package, and I don't think people should let it worry them to the point of choosing not to work with spiders because of it.

[BigJ]

They all come from the same part of Africa

I understand that...but what I am saying is SPECIFIC, like a certain spot that could/would constitute their possible "adapted" hunting skills as Mike suggests.

[cmack91]

so are you wondering if theyre a sub-species of some sorts? ive wondered that about all the morphs in general, since theyre range, while thin across central africa, is still enormous since africa is a BIG place. but what i dont get, is that with hybrids, wouldnt you get a mixed animal instead of one or the other? for example when you breed a spider to a normal, you get half spiders, and half normals, but none that are both. so why would only one single gene take a different evolutionary path, while the rest are still normal? the wobble seems to have a direct link with the spider gene (from what ive gathered on here at least), but has anyone seen a normal from a spider clutch that has that wobble? i would think that if it were a "sub-species" of some sort, it would be able to pass down the wobble without passing down the pattern, or vise versa, does that all make sense? im kinda tired lol

[purplemuffin]

Spiders are very interesting. It's difficult to describe them. I would almost suggest a spider to a new owner simply because their wobble can..well, help us understand what is going on in their heads. My boyfriend calls them "domesticated ball pythons", though that's not really the right word. But I get what he means. They tend to 'communicate' to us more than other ball pythons do.

If I take out my normal and hold him, I know he is stressed. Even when he is not showing signs of stress. I discover his stress later when he refuses to eat, despite him acting completely calm and normal the entire time. Only when he is EXTREMELY stressed out do I notice him acting different than normal.

However, you will know the moment a spider is starting to get nervous. That wobble can speak to us, a lot like a cockatiel's crest. When they get excited, they start spinnin'! I can see when a spider is hungry, and I could probably tell much easier if a spider was going to be willing to take a f/t rodent or if he simply wasn't hungry. If he's not getting excited about the rat, he's probably not going to eat. Sometimes it's harder to tell with the normals who hold perfectly still until they strike--or hold perfectly still....until you leave them alone because they aren't going to eat that night.

Seeing spiders helps me realize how nervous BPs are. I think normals are feeling just as much stress as the spiders are, but the spiders have a way of expressing the excitement, curiosity, fear, or stress in a way that can communicate what they need to us. It's kind of cool to be honest.

Maybe spiders aren't 'adapted to the world' more, but perhaps even 'adapted to captivity' better than a high stress normal.

[Kenj620]

The spider ball python is a mutation or "morph", meaning that a specific gene is different from the normal or "wild type". In this case whatever gene it is that is different effects the all the different aspects of the python that characterize it as the spider morph, this could be anything from a defected enzyme or regulatory protein, but it all comes from the single mutation.

Natural selection controls the genomes that exist within a population, and may select for a mutation that offers a survival advantage. If the spider mutation had a selective advantage, they would be the wild type and we would call them normals.

Spiders do make great morphs to keep though, I love their colors and the wobble gives them lots of personality, they are great feeders and make beautiful combos too.

[MidSouthMorphs]

I like your perspective Mike. Nobody really knows how long the Spider has actually been around, their history is really unknown prior to the Ball Python market exploding like it did.

[Domepiece]

Very nice thought. I agree. My spiders wobble is almost unnoticable and he is in fact one of my best feeders, he misses once in a blue moon but he always gets his meal and feeds every time often looking for more. I think that most genetic traits whether it be color, pattern, or behavior come from a genetic advantage at some point in the history of the animals and their environments and that most of the traits we see today are genetic leftovers hanging on just incase they become usefull again.