Talk to me about breeding Deserts...

[JLC]

For a lot of people, their entire herping world consists of BP.net. Even for myself, with as many connections as I have...with the amount of time I spend here, and as busy as the rest of my days are...I have little time for other sites. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I was not aware that there was a potential issue with the Desert morph. For a lot of us...if it's not discussed here, then we're kinda out of the loop.

As much as possible, I want our members to be "in the loop" and if there are extra risks involved in purchasing certain morphs, then it is fair and just to discuss them here.

So what do we KNOW about breeding the Deserts? Are the females slow to mature? Do they have some sort of special husbandry requirements to become fertile? Is there some sort of gender connection with the gene?

Right now, I believe it's all speculation and a lot more work needs to be done to learn for certain. I believe it's fair for the community to be aware of this fact. I believe it's fair for people to make guesses (preferably educated ones! ) about what the issue might be and how to overcome it. And hopefully those with actual hands-on experience will chime in WHEN they know something.

This is NOT a place to speculate about what the breeders know or don't know...what they're willing or not willing to share. This is not a court and it does more harm than good to the community as a whole to cause such distrust of reputable breeders with vague, random accusations.

If a member of this site has a SPECIFIC charge to bring against a specific individual or business, this must be done properly in the Inquiry Forum. Full names must be disclosed and all known evidence laid out thoroughly so the issue may be properly addressed, rebutted and defended.

We will no longer tolerate these sorts of insinuations an innuendos and doing so may earn very serious infraction points.

[Robyn@SYR]

Here's a summary of what I think ("know" is a funny word : )

- I think Desert females grow fine. We have females 2 years old over 1200 grams, and females 3 years old over 2300 grams. Males also grow well. Our early Desert females were acquired as juvies and young adults (1100 grams max?), and they did not eat well, or grow well. The females (and males) that we have bred and hatched here at PE grow and mature no differently than any other Ball python mutation we work with.

- I do know that smaller Desert females have thrown slugs, or become egg bound, when bred at smaller sizes. We have seen this with females in the 1000-1200 gram range.

- I think it is better to breed Desert females at 2000+ grams. That is what we are doing now.

- From the Desert females I know of that have laid good clutches, I think heat may play an important factor. Successful clutches have come from setups with no additional heat. Low ambient room temps, no heat tape or hot spots. That also means a bit slower growth, and slower progress with follicle size and cycling.

- I do know that we have a few Desert (and combo) females with follicles in the 10-20mm range, which is prime time for successful breeding, copping with Desert males (or combos) right now. They have no additional heat. Copping is good, but follicle growth and progress is definitely slower than what we normally see in our typical setups with cage hot spots.

- We get eggs every month of the year. There is no 2-3 month "season" for eggs anymore. We breed according to the cycle of the individual female. Our last eggs for 2010 were in December, our first eggs for 2011 were in January. There are 150 clutches in between. Not getting Desert eggs between June and August doesn't concern me in the least.

- I don't know WHY Desert females would use heat differently than "typical" Balls or Ball morphs, but it is intriguing, and we are working to find out.

- What I do not know is the 100% story on the origin of the Desert line. I have heard it at least 6 different ways. I am going with the Albey story at this point, linked here. It points to different wild caught animals, coming in different shipments, that looked similar. I do not know that the PE and PK lines are the same. Sometimes they look similar, sometimes they look very different.

Albey's Desert genesis story

- I know we (Pro Exotics) have been working with the Deserts for 3+ years. I know other terrific breeders that have been working with them for less time. I don't know of anyone that has worked with the Deserts consistently for "10 years" as some have insisted. Pete Kahl has worked with them for some time, but he doesn't post online, doesn't respond to emails, and doesn't seem to want to participate in the discussion. That doesn't bother me, we are doing our thing, other great breeders are doing theirs.

- I am excited to see what guys like Albey, Marc Bailey, Dan Wolfe, Ralph Davis and others do in the next couple of years, as they have a few years of Desert work under their belts at this point. They are all very talented.

- Deserts eat well, grow well, look healthy and strong, copulate well, breed well, and babies hatch and do well. Adult females look fantastic visually, strong and healthy. I can't think of a reason that adult females would not be viable. If they are heat sensitive, I would take advantage of that and maximize effectiveness, but I can't say that I would understand it.

- I just received news that another Desert female has laid a clutch in Europe. We have been sending quite a few Deserts that way the last two years. The clutch is associated with a PE customer. I am waiting anxiously for more news- which line of Deserts, combo female or not, and some pics.

That's all I can think of right now...

[loonunit]

Wow! The heat thing is bizarre if it turns out to be true for all desert females.

And those are pretty picky weight requirements for breeding females. Waiting until 2000 grams seems CRAZY to me, given I've only gotten eggs so far from a 1300 gram 2007 het girl. How old are these lightweight females that slug out?

[nick_kennedy25]

I usually don't even bother to post in a thread when "Gods gift to Ball Pythons" shows up. As far as deserts are concerned though I wish the females didn't have such a gloomy outlook. They make awesome combos IMO. I personally know two breeders with desert females close to the 2000 gram range that slugged out this year, but I don't think they tried to play with hot spots or room temps.

[purplemuffin]

It would be very interesting if it turns out the desert gene, though a visual morph, possibly affects certain other internal/genetic workings of the snake.. Clearly genes like the spider cause some kind of motor/neurological thing other than just the pretty pattern. Like, absorbing certain vitamins. I know certain people questioned the enigma morph in leopard geckos and wondered if the spinning was caused by their inability to intake certain nutrients and it caused some deficiencies, and wondered increasing the amount they got of (I think it was calcium? I don't remember) helped them in any way. Not sure how that turned out, I think as breeding seasons came and went they sort of forgot about the idea. Not really the point. The point is, there is probably something going on that we cannot just SEE... Maybe something in their genetics making them "lack" that good egg making quality.. Maybe there is a way we can increase the number of good eggs. It could be something hormonal that goes on during the building time most BPs have that just help them make good eggs, and perhaps some deserts have gotten enough of that hormone to make a good clutch or two(luck? difference in care in general?), but the others have been having difficulties.

This is all just me guessing at anything. We don't know much about morphs honestly other than what they make the snake look like and how to get more of them. I don't know exactly why the spider gene causes the wobbles or why caramels kink, but clearly there is something connecting the issues genetically. Sadly to really, REALLY know, it would probably would require a lot of scary/expensive testing to really know what's going on inside of our dear snakes.

[wolfy-hound]

If no one responded to the disruptor, then he'd go away. The "IGNORE" feature works really well. So stop responding, quoting, feeding the troll. When you hit IGNORE, all his posts go away and the only way you'd know he exists is the little blurb that says he did post and ALL THE PEOPLE QUOTING AND RESPONDING.

Sorry for all caps. But geez. What part of "Don't feed trolls" is hard?

Back to deserts. If desert morph does affect only the females, as in a sex-linked gene of some sort, could there be any chance that a necropsy could uncover physical issues? Not that I would want someone to sacrifice a perfectly healthy(other than breeding) animal just to hack it open. But if we found an actual researcher/vet who was very experianced in herps/pythons that could test and know what he/she was looking at, could that show an issue?

I wouldn't want to just slaughter animals, but someone mentioned egg bound individuals dying, and that could be a opportunity. If the researcher was found and was willing to look, then when the tragic death occured, it could be shipped on ice to be examined. Alternatively, a healthy animal could be sacrificed, but I hate to see any healthy animal killed unless needed. Perhaps only blood samples to check for any "hormone" type chemicals vs a normal at the same stage of ovulation? I don't know what sorts of things are in the blood of snakes that do the job of hormones in mammals, but that's why I suggest the researcher.

And just as a slight 'haha', if it does turn out that the desert females need lower temps to be fertile, it'll be amusing that they were named for the hottest regions of the planet. 'Desert' balls needing cooler temps. Sorry... things pop in my head and make me smile in that sad lopsided manner occasionally.

[JLC]

The disruptive posts have been removed and sent to the Quarantine Room where folks may continue to bicker and mock as they wish... If you do not have access to QT and would like to see what's in there, then simply PM any admin (names in red) and ask to be let in.

THIS thread is for the specific discussion of desert breeding projects and its future. It will not be allowed to turn into a soap box or a circus ring.

[JLC]

Like BG said in a pm Judy. Big Guns can understand why you would be frustrated with the threads he started, but by closing them instead of moving them where you said they need to be you have done exactly what you would want to avoid. People(3 people called BG tonight before he ever saw this) now think it was done for business reason. BG doesn't really believe that, but it looks that way to "outsiders". Considering the first person to post on this thread that never entered BG's.....it really really looks that way to the "uninformed".

We made our decision to act as we did knowing full well what some people might think or say. EVERY decision we make in the running of this site causes people to come to various conclusions and assumptions. We can't control what they think and we don't make our decisions on what is right for the site based on what a few cynical individuals might or might not assume about our motives.

[angllady2]

I too am extremely interested to find out what is KNOWN about breeding deserts. I do see them for sale so the babies have to come from somewhere.

I have a genuine interest in breeding deserts if I can find out beyond doubt it is a viable endeavor. Robyn's post raises some hopes for me. Certainly it might require more effort and finesse to successfully breed deserts than other morphs, but a serious breeder would be willing to put in the extra effort. I know I would be willing to put in whatever effort was necessary if it meant I could raise these animals with a decent degree of success.

Hopefully some of the other breeders who have managed to breed these animals consistently will come forward and share any tips and/or tricks they have found to work for them.

Gale

[wolfy-hound]

I'd like to add a very generous offer from myself to take in some of the poor possibly-infertile females that anyone wants to offer. *grins* So if anyone doesn't want to feed the poor girls anymore due to the rumors, I'll take a few!

If they really were proven completely worthless, I'd get one just because they are so bright and beautiful.