how sad is this?! have some places really lost all traces of humanity?

[mommanessy247]

‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others watched idly from the shore.

Why? Officials blamed a departmental policy, stemming from budget cuts, that prevented them from jumping in to save him.

Fifty-year-old Raymond Zack spent nearly an hour in the water before drowning. A crowd of about 75 people, in addition to first responders, watched from the beach in Alameda across the bay from San Francisco as Zack inched farther and farther away, sometimes glancing back, a witness told the San Jose Mercury News. "The next thing he was floating face down."

A volunteer eventually pulled Zack's lifeless body from the Bay.

Mike D'Orazi of the Alameda Fire Department said that, due to 2009 budget cuts, his crews lacked the training and gear to enter the water. And a Coast Guard boat couldn't access the area because the water was too shallow.

"The incident yesterday was deeply regrettable," D'Orazi said Tuesday. "But I can also see it from our firefighters' perspective. They're standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy at that point."

Alameda Police Lt. Sean Lynch also suggested his men did the right thing. "He was engaged in a deliberate act of taking his own life," Lynch told the Mercury News. "We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved. It's not a situation of a typical rescue."

But at a City Council hearing Tuesday night, some locals expressed outrage that Zack was left to die. "This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," said one resident, Adam Gillitt.

The city said it would spend up to $40,000 to certify 16 firefighters in land-based water rescues.

One witness to the event told a local news station that Zack was looking at people on the shore. "We expected to see at some point that there would be a concern for him," said another.

some of the comments:

what stopped all the other prople?

You have 75 people, and you cant make a human chain.

my favorite

"The city said it would spend up to $40,000 to certify 16 firefighters in land-based water rescues."

Step 1- Remove heavy clothing.
Step 2- Get into water.
Step 3- Swim (or in this case, walk) to victim.
Step 4- Grab victim.
Step 5- Repeat previous 4 steps in reverse order.

There I just saved you 40,000 dollars.

[cecilbturtle]

in one of my philosophy classes in college we talked about two separate incidents involving car accidents where a vehicle caught on fire and a person was trapped burning alive. in one instance the burning man was begging an officer to put him out of his misery. by standers couldnt bear to watch him burning alive so they we begging the officer to shoot him. he did and was later arrested, lost his job, and faced trial for killing the man.

the other incident was the same scenario but this time the officer slide his gun to the burning man so he could shoot himself which he did. this time the officer was only reprimanded for relinquishing his weapon.

im not the one to decide whats right or wrong but in my opinion the first cop got it right.

[LadyOhh]

Everyone is so trigger happy in terms of legal issues, I don't doubt that even if someone did save him that there wouldn't be a ton of backlash somehow for it.

It's a shame, really.

[Skittles1101]

Also, someone who sits there and waits to drown that long is clearly mentally unstable. Working for a police dept, I KNOW what it's like to deal with these people, especially in that mind frame. I've had to listen to some very horrible incidents involving suicidal/violent people. They did not know if he had weapons, they did not know if he was violent, they probably didn't even have his name until he was dead to run his info for a history. We don't know the circumstances, and honestly I don't blame the personnel for standing by. Seeing these things first hand I can completely understand, and it's hard for the general public to realize that there are some seriously dangerous people out there, and it's much more common than you think. God forbid that guy was just waiting for someone to go out and get him for him to open fire on the cops or firefighters...

The newspaper only shows one side of things.

[Kinra]

I can only imagine that no one attempting to save him just made it even worse for the man, proving his point that his life is meaningless.

I don't think there really is a right or a wrong in this situation. As was stated who knows if he would have become dangerous had any one attempted to pull him back to shore. It's great that they are going to be training firefighters in this type of rescue, but it's too little to late.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Anyone who knows how to swim and swim well, could have attempted to help this man. I almost understand the cops position but a bystander should have done something.

If you are a strong swimmer, and the man tried to fight you off, you could easily swim away. It is extremely difficult for anyone to have the upper hand in the water.

[mommanessy247]

well see the thing is...suicide attempts are simply a cry for help.

Lgray23 - i'm not trying to be rude or anything and i understand that you work with the law enforcement but seriously i have to say, unless your a cop and have actually been in a situation involving a mentally unstable person, you really cant sit there and say you know what it's like to deal with it. i was RAISED by a cop, and just like you, have heard countless horror stories as well but even i would not say i know how it is to deal with something like that. i'm not saying i dont discount the cops fears, heck, they were probably going over the pros/cons in the event they decided to make the 1st move to save the guy. i think the worst situation for a cop, and i've heard them say it's the call they dread getting...the situation in which someone is armed and obviously mentally unstable and appears suicidal. 9 x's outta 10, they want the cops to kill them (suicide by cop) so they dont have to do it themselves. people have been killed because they pointed a weapon at a cop, forcing the cop to defend himself. i've heard, from my dad, that he saw one of his fellow officers kill a man for that very reason and sadly the perps gun was empty and my dad has seen numerous cops seriously injured and a couple killed because they didnt fire their weapon soon enough, they hesitated too long.
so yeah, i can understand the cops nervousness but in the end everyone on that shore made the ultimate decision to just stand by and watch.
of course the news only shows 1 side of things. it's what get them their high ratings. show only what will get everyone's attention.
what we dont know is if the guy in the water threatened to harm anyone who would try to save him hence causing everyone to not want to take that risk. that's an understandable reason to hesitate on the shore.

[Skittles1101]

well see the thing is...suicide attempts are simply a cry for help.

Lgray23 - i'm not trying to be rude or anything and i understand that you work with the law enforcement but seriously i have to say, unless your a cop and have actually been in a situation involving a mentally unstable person, you really cant sit there and say you know what it's like to deal with it. i was RAISED by a cop, and just like you, have heard countless horror stories as well but even i would not say i know how it is to deal with something like that. i'm not saying i dont discount the cops fears, heck, they were probably going over the pros/cons in the event they decided to make the 1st move to save the guy. i think the worst situation for a cop, and i've heard them say it's the call they dread getting...the situation in which someone is armed and obviously mentally unstable and appears suicidal. 9 x's outta 10, they want the cops to kill them (suicide by cop) so they dont have to do it themselves. people have been killed because they pointed a weapon at a cop, forcing the cop to defend himself. i've heard, from my dad, that he saw one of his fellow officers kill a man for that very reason and sadly the perps gun was empty and my dad has seen numerous cops seriously injured and a couple killed because they didnt fire their weapon soon enough, they hesitated too long.
so yeah, i can understand the cops nervousness but in the end everyone on that shore made the ultimate decision to just stand by and watch.
of course the news only shows 1 side of things. it's what get them their high ratings. show only what will get everyone's attention.
what we dont know is if the guy in the water threatened to harm anyone who would try to save him hence causing everyone to not want to take that risk. that's an understandable reason to hesitate on the shore.

Actually...I do have first hand experience with mentally unstable people. Have you ever had someone blow their head off with a shotgun with you on the phone? I think not...you don't have to be there physically to know first hand what it's like to deal with these people...

True story.

[Skittles1101]

Okay, now that I am thinking a little more clearly, being raised by a cop (which I was as well, for the record, my step father who raised me is a Sgt and has been on his dept for over 21 years) and having to interact with people that cops themselves come into contact with are two totally different things. Obviously, cops get the physical and visual end of these things, which you clearly stated, but saying I have no idea what it's like? That statement alone proves that the general public really has no idea what ANY public safety worker goes through, cop or not. I can go on and on about horrific, scary, and mentally damaging incidents that I have been involved in, but it won't help anything. The bottom line is, I personally have countless hours of training classes, certificates, and in house experience, I am trained on what to say and how to speak to a suicidal person. If someone is going to do it, they are going to do it. It certainly is not always a cry for help. The man who shot himself in the head with me on the phone simply told me where to find his body and pulled the trigger. I got to listen to his hysteric voice and crying for all of 45 seconds before I heard the shot, then I got to listen to his death gurgle for 3 1/2 minutes until the police and rescue arrived on scene. That was probably my worst suicide.

I have had everything from the attention seeker "suicidal" people to the "come find my body" suicidal people, and it isn't easy with any of them. If that man was just looking for attention or crying for help as people say, he wouldn't have stayed there for an hour, he had plenty of time to think (not rationally obviously....there is nothing rational about a suicidal person's mind), and he had plenty of time to change his mind. To risk first responder safety, in a body of water, with possible hidden weapons is just crazy. I am not saying that in that situation I personally wouldn't have jumped in to help him, but to say that officers and firefighters have no sense of humanity just because they are looking out for their own safety is rude. Like I said, the newspaper only gives one side of the story, he could have been shouting threats the entire time for all we know.

[kitedemon]

I simply do not have enough information to make any kind of valuable judgement. The real question is how cold is the water? I just checked the SF bay buoy (PZ530) and it is reporting 9-10ºC (48-50ºF) I have been in cold water with out protective gear (accidentally) on contact my legs hit my chest and I could not move them. It was hard to breath, I was less than 4 feet from a dock and I used to work as a lifeguard when I was younger but that was the hardest 4 foot swim of my life. I didn't have the strength to climb out a ladder that was there all I could do was hang on. By the time I was out of the water I was entering stage 3 hypothermia and spent the night in the hospital. I was in water that was 6ºC (42.8ºF) for 8 min.

If the area where the buoy temperature is taken is similar to the area where the event took place there is no way with out a wet suit of boat or some protective gear that anyone could swim out and save anybody.

Police and firefighers are doing a job, they are not paid to die for people. They understand the dangers take precautions to protect themselves and act. Don't blame the people on the ground, blame the governor or the tax payers, blame the people whom didn't say that emergency services is a priority all the time not just when there is an emergency.

A friend of mine works in a local fire department the government just cut the budget 37% it is a small station, that means they now have 2 full time fire fighters, at any given time only one professional firefighter will be on scene they are not allowed to do ANYTHING by them selves they have to wait until the volunteer fire fighters arrive. The response time for the volunteers is 45 min. But the government saved 35000 a year, and just got re-elected on the strength of the tax reform in the budget. I can't wait to hear the same story, man burns in fire while firefighters (well firefighter) sits in truck.

I don't know the facts, do you?

http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm
http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/PZ/530.html