Carpet Pythons

[Jay_Bunny]

While at a show on Sunday I got a chance to talk with someone about carpet pythons as my sister really liked the look of some of his snakes. We got to handle a few and I must say I really liked them. The one I really liked was labeled as a 88% Irian Jaya Jungle. He was beautiful! But I do have a question about them. What does the 88% mean? Is it a hybrid between two different localities or something? He said the jungle gene was co-dominant. So if you were to breed a jungle to a regular Irian Jaya, would it work the same way as co-dominant genes for ball pythons?

All I know is, the snake was $900 and simply beautiful! And the guy was super nice and answered all of our questions. If only I had thought of asking these while I was there.

[mainbutter]

I'm going to explain a bit that may help clear some things up.

The latin name for carpet pythons is Morelia spilota

There are a bunch of subspecies of M. spilota, the most common of which in the US go by the common names:

Irian jaya*
Coastal
Jungle
Diamond

If you crossed two subspecies, say a coastal and a jungle, then the offspring would be "50% coastal jungle".

If you then bred those offspring to a pure coastal, they would be "75% coastal 25% jungle", which could be shortened to simply "75% coastal jungle". This is because each parent contributes to half of the genetic makeup of the offspring.

If you took THOSE offspring and bred them AGAIN to a pure coastal, you end up with 87.5% coastal 12.5% jungles.. or shortened and rounded up to simply "88% coastal jungles"

Now - to the snakes you mentioned.

I am very sure that what you mean to say was that you saw "88% IJ JAGUARS" This gets confusing, as we're going to be dealing with SUBSPECIES CROSSES (aka intergrades) as well as an incomplete dominant trait.

The jaguar trait is an incomplete dominant color and pattern trait, with the homozygous form being lethal (hatchlings die in the egg or soon after hatching, and interestingly enough don't develop any color and are pure white). In addition, they experience wobbling or "neuro" issues similar to spider ball pythons.

The jaguar trait is believed to have originated in a coastal carpet python. There is some debate about the purity of the founding jaguar that popped up in Europe some years ago, so often the non-jaguar offspring that are children of a jaguar parent are sold as "jaguar siblings", so that they don't get unintentionally passed off as well-documented pure subspecies.

Because the various subspecies have different looks, there has been selective line breeding to hatch out jaguar-trait animals that have lots of genetic makeup coming from another subspecies. These snakes are not pure localities, they are not pure subspecies, they are "designer mutts". Any jaguar that is a "diamond jaguar" or "IJ jaguar" or "jungle jaguar" or anything like that is a cross between subspecies.

If you are really interested in carpet pythons, I urge you to check out the http://www.moreliapythons.com forum. It's a great place to read, talk, and learn.

If you want to see some truly spectacular designer intergrade carpet pythons, go check out John Battaglia's Gamma-line jaguars and Diamond-jungles over at http://www.moreliatrophyclub.com. I was lucky enough to pick up a pair of carpet pythons off him last year

[Clementine_3]

Great post mainbutter!
One of these day (hah!) I want an 88% IJ Jag, those things are nothing short of spectacular!

[Jay_Bunny]

Jaguar! Yes, that is what I meant. So the 88% Irian Jaya Jaguar is a "designer mutt"?

I'll check out the forum! After handling an adult, I'm liking these more and more. I will definitely be adding one (or more) to my collection in the future. I can't wait to start learning more!

He did mention that the homozygous form was lethal. He had a granite that was stunning as well. I'm going to be doing some research into what kind of carpet I'm looking to get.

Thanks so much!!!

[mainbutter]

Jaguar! Yes, that is what I meant. So the 88% Irian Jaya Jaguar is a "designer mutt"?

Yup! Nothing wrong with mutts (aka intergrades), at least from my perspective, just as long as they are not sold as anything other than what they are.

They're certainly designer because you don't get an 88%er offspring until the third generation, so these really are long term projects.

One of the drawbacks to these intergrade jaguar projects is that, since all jags are heterozygotes, half of the offspring will simply be normal intergrades, and from the hobby's standpoint, most coastal x IJ or coastal x jungle intergrades are fairly undesirable. A big problem with the high % intergrades is that less-than-honest people may try to pass them off as pure varieties because of their less than desirable nature. This problem is particularly compounded as, with the exception of IJs and some other localities (papuans and such), we cannot get fresh wild-caught stock of carpet pythons. Australia has had a no-export law since the 70s, so for US and European carpet python keepers, unlabeled intergrades being mistaken for pure subspecies is an issue.

One of my favorite jaguar projects are the tiger jaguars. Both tigers and jaguars are for all intents and purposes seen as coastals in the US, so there is less of an intergrade issue with them. The latest tiger jaguars produced in this country are SUPER reduced in pattern and just look absolutely crazy, plus they're coastals (my favorite) to boot

[CopperNightShade]

Okay... so I am interested in a carpet python, but I desperately want to avoid the neuro issues of the jags. Is it just pure jags that have it? Or would a IJ Jag display the same issues?

(sorry to sidetrack the thread)

[olstyn]

The wobble/neuro issue is, as far as anyone has been able to determine, part of the Jaguar gene. Some display it more, some display it less, but they all have it to some degree. It doesn't seem to matter how much outcrossing has been done; you could have a 94% IJ Jag or even a 97%, and it would still have the wobble.

Very much like Spider BPs, it doesn't prevent them from eating/breeding/etc, but it's hard to know how it affects their quality of life, since we can't truly understand how they experience it.

[CopperNightShade]

The wobble/neuro issue is, as far as anyone has been able to determine, part of the Jaguar gene. Some display it more, some display it less, but they all have it to some degree. It doesn't seem to matter how much outcrossing has been done; you could have a 94% IJ Jag or even a 97%, and it would still have the wobble.

Very much like Spider BPs, it doesn't prevent them from eating/breeding/etc, but it's hard to know how it affects their quality of life, since we can't truly understand how they experience it.

Very good to know, thanks!

[mainbutter]

Ditto on what olstyn said 100%

[Crusader71]

Jaguar wobble? I have a 88%IJ that I have had for over a year and I have never see her display any sign of a wobble