Is the amount of brown pigment in Pastels really hereditary?

[Adam Chandler]

I've always assumed that a Pastel's amount of yellow and brown was hereditary, i.e. a low brown / high yellow pastel would breed and create low brown / high yellow offspring but now I am questioning this. One of my very first BP morphs was a male Pastel that even as an adult was extremely high yellow with low brown coloring. When people saw him most asked if he was a Lemon Pastel which I told them that no, he was just an above average Pastel. I bred this high yellow Pastel to one of my normal girls and got 1.1 Pastels from the clutch. The male came out very bright yellow just like his dad and the female came darker yellowish/orange and now at 6 months she is already showing some brown on her back. To me this clutch seems to suggest that Pastel pigment is kind of like breeding Pieds, where a low white Pied can create high and low white Pied offspring.

What do you guys think? Is the amount of "Yellow vs Brown" in Pastels hereditary or random like the white in Pieds?

(and I'm talking about regular Pastels here, not NERD's Lemon Pastel which I believe is a separate proven genetic line)

[m00kfu]

You need to remember that BOTH parents add to the genes of the offspring.

[Adam Chandler]

You need to remember that BOTH parents add to the genes of the offspring.

So what you are saying is the normal mom passed genetics that caused baby male Pastel to be brighter and his sister to have more brown?
Wouldn't that mean if I bred the high brown Pastel female to a normal it could produce high yellow / low brown babies based on what that normal dad passes?

[OhhWatALoser]

So what you are saying is the normal mom passed genetics that caused baby male Pastel to be brighter and his sister to have more brown?
Wouldn't that mean if I bred the high brown Pastel female to a normal it could produce high yellow / low brown babies based on what that normal dad passes?

Generally speaking yes.

I wouldn't expect a bright yellow baby out of a subpar pastel and a bright normal. but I would bet that some of them might be better looking than the original pastel. Its more selective breeding than just one gene being passed or not. multiple gene effect how a snake looks so its very variable.

but basically if you want a more yellow pastel, pair it with a more yellow looking normal, not a dark one. you have a better chance at producing what you want.

[JLC]

There's a significant difference between genetic breeding (KNOWING you're going to get a pastel or a pied or albino or whatever) and selective breeding for specific looks (ie: reduced pattern, bright pastels that hold their color, etc).

If you have a really bright yellow adult pastel that has held its color well, you increase your chances of throwing similar offspring, but there's no guarantees. It depends just as much on the other parent as well. If your pastel male covers a really light, high blushing normal female, your chances of producing exceptional pastels increases even more. If the female is a typical dark brown normal with little to no blushing, the babies are likely to inherit a similar look.

Never any guarantees with selective breeding...no specific percentages you can count on. But the better the stock, the better your chances of exceptional babies. BE PICKY!!

[Adam Chandler]

What's funny is the normal female I bred him with was a very light girl I bought from Adam Wysocki‎ (8 Ball Pythons) a few years back that he called a "blurry ball" because of how much blushing she had for a normal.

This is the female that I produced from my high contrast Pastel male and "blurry" ball. Her brother turned out nice and bright just like her dad but she came more orange as you can see in this pic http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/show...mageuser=16263
Now I'm conflicted about raising her and breeding her because I pride my BP buisness on buying and using the best breeding stock and even though she came from a high yellow dad and a high blushing mom she herself turned out darker. What do you guys think, should I risk breeding her?

[OhhWatALoser]

I wouldn't call it a risk breeding her, but If you want to produce top stock, I think I would pass on her.

[mainbutter]

Amount of "browning" in pastels is hereditary. It is also very much polygenetic, with plenty of room for drift with two high quality or two low quality parents.

Take a good look at selective breeding for other herps. Carpet pythons, blood pythons, and GTPs come to mind in particular. Selective breeding is a long and hard process, and far from as direct and simple as typical BP morph breeding. There is a lot more guesswork involved, and usually takes many generations to have a project really come to fruition.

[seeya205]

I would breed two high yellow pastels together and then you have high chances that the regular pastels that come out will get one of the parents high yellow gene! There is no guarantee with any ball python breeding!

[m00kfu]

I wouldn't consider it a risk breeding her... more of a gamble really. Just as an example, say you were to breed your bright pastel male to her. As was mentioned earlier, it's more than JUST the pastel gene that makes a nice pastel. There is the chance that some of the offspring could get all the good stuff from the dad as opposed to the not so good stuff from the mom. You won't get very far with improving the line if you don't work with it. I'd say breed her, hold back anything that comes out of it that meets your standards and sell the rest of the clutch. Eventually you'll get to the point where the majority of your animals are carrying the traits you want and will be more likely to produce what you're looking for.