What's the differance between a super and a double codom?

[Adam Chandler]

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding something?
I’m trying to understand the difference between a homozygous super form and a double codom form a little better.

For example I know a Super Pastel bred to a Normal BP will have a Punnett square with the 2 Pastel genes on one side and the 2 normal genes on another, resulting in all offspring being normal.

Now if a double CoDom, for example a Lesser Pastel, was bred to a normal then since there is no super form present there would be a chance for normal offspring right?

Something like a:
25% chance of normals
25% chance of Lessers
25% chance of Pastels
25% chance of Lesser Pastels

[Freakie_frog]

super to normal means all morphs...Double co-dom to normal means 1:4 at the combo and normals and 50/50 on the single gene morph..

Super pastel X Normal = 100% pastels

Pastel Pin (blast) X Normal = 25% normals, 25%, Blast 25%, Pastels, 25% Pinstripe

[Tzeentch]

"...2 Pastel genes on one side and the 2 normal genes on another, resulting in all offspring being normal."

you mean "resulting in all offspring being pastel"

[Adam Chandler]

"...2 Pastel genes on one side and the 2 normal genes on another, resulting in all offspring being normal."

you mean "resulting in all offspring being pastel"

Yeah I meant all Pastel, typo><

[Serpent_Nirvana]

The difference is that a "super" is homozygous for a given gene -- it has two copies of the same mutant gene on a given locus. (The term is a little frustrating to me, because it isn't genetically descriptive and I think it can be a little misleading. Technically, any visual recessive morph could be considered a "super," although the term is generally only used to refer to a homozygous co-dominant animal.)

A "double co-dom" is a genetically descriptive term -- it means that the animal has a copy of two different co-dominant mutant genes, at two different loci. It is heterozygous for two different mutant genes.

Practically, though, you've already got it sorted out.

[RandyRemington]

The tricky part comes though when what the trade considers two different mutations happen to be alleles (different mutations of the same gene).

A Karma is the combination of phantom and lesser which it turns out are part of a large blue eyed leucistic allele complex. A Karma bred to a normal is sort of like a super breeding in that none of the babies are normal looking (each egg has 50/50 chance of being lesser or phantom, but no normals and no Karma). Also you can't have more than two copies of the same gene so it's not possible to make a lesser phantom mojave since those mutations are alleles. There is a different allele group around ivory/super stripe and probably another one around the black eyed leucistic.

[Whoodnballs]

Also you can't have more than two copies of the same gene so it's not possible to make a lesser phantom mojave since those mutations are alleles.

Have people tried this? To make a bel that has more than 2 morphs in the bel complex? That would clear up the whole some locus question.

Sorry to steal the tread

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Aah, Randy! I was deliberately avoiding the topic of the "BEL" locus ... I figured one of the other serious genetics folks would bring it up anyway, ha ha ...

Still, though, since I generally do hear folks refer to a homozygous mojave lucy as a "super mojave" or a homozygous lesser lucy as a "super lesser," it pretty much still jives with the working trade definition of the word "super" ... But man, it is tricky when you're trying to name the ones like the Karma that are *technically* heterozygous at the BEL locus (heterozygous, but without a "normal" allele present )

@ Whoodnballs, I think that all of the breedings done by folks working with all the numerous genes in the "BEL complex" have statistically suggested that they're all on the same locus ... At this point, I think it'll always be a theory, technically, until we sequence the ball python genome and "prove" it (ie, always, since that will most likely never happen), but it's a pretty well-accepted working theory.

[RandyRemington]

Wondered if I should complicate the subject with alleles. But it seems like they are popping up everywhere now days so seems like something everyone might need to know eventually. I remember when the pewter was first produced and I thought there was a good chance cinnamon and pastel would be alleles. I was wrong on that one but there have been a ton of others since then.

Is there a word for animals like the Karma and Mystic Potion that are a combo of mutant alleles with no room for the normal version?

[Russ Lawson]

Wondered if I should complicate the subject with alleles. But it seems like they are popping up everywhere now days so seems like something everyone might need to know eventually. I remember when the pewter was first produced and I thought there was a good chance cinnamon and pastel would be alleles. I was wrong on that one but there have been a ton of others since then.

Is there a word for animals like the Karma and Mystic Potion that are a combo of mutant alleles with no room for the normal version?

If you hadn't, I would have. Some people also refer to the heterozygous crosses like that as supers, but I don't think it's descriptive enough. Then again, I don't think you could title them something descriptive enough in only one or two words. I usually just say double mutant heterozygote when describing them.