Hidden genes

[BigLu]

I was looking at pictures of the hidden gene Citrus lines crosses that are available on kingsnake and pics of the soulsuckers by NERD and they are simply amazing. Are hidden genes ressesive? What do we know about them? Were these breeders just lucky to stumble across these or are there some tell tale signs one could go with to know theres a hidden gene?

[BAMReptiles]

all of them so far appear to be dom / incomplete dom. luck is probably goin to play a big part in it, but ive hear that the original hidden gene woma looked significantly different than the normal run of the mill woma. and id say we know very little about them, as we actually dont know THAT much about normal bp genetics

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I actually had to Google the hidden gene Citrus, but it looks like it does some pretty cool stuff!

The impression that I get is that a lot of this so-called "hidden gene" stuff (like the "hidden-gene woma" or "hidden-gene Citrus pastel") is actually just one dominant or co-dominant mutation that was originally mistaken for something else, and mis-named, and then given the addendum "hidden gene" once it was discovered that it did something different than what it was thought to be (under the mistaken impression that it carried a 2nd, "hidden" gene).

NERD has already stated that the so-called "hidden gene" woma isn't in any way related to the "regular" woma, but Kevin thought they might've been the same when they were first imported so both were originally named "woma." Further breeding revealed that the "hidden gene" woma does a bunch of cool, crazy stuff when combined with lessers, etc., but the "regular" woma doesn't.

Based on my understanding, I don't think the "hidden gene woma" or "hidden gene Citrus" is really hiding anything more than, say, the yellowbelly or specter mutations -- all are fairly subtle single-gene mutations that just happen to do some wicked stuff when combined with the right animals. (I don't know as much about the "HG Citrus" though so I might be totally off on that one!)

[BAMReptiles]

i wouldnt say "hidden" since the platty requires a gene from a normal looking animal that is a result of rdr's original platty daddy

[MKHerps]

I actually had to Google the hidden gene Citrus, but it looks like it does some pretty cool stuff!

The impression that I get is that a lot of this so-called "hidden gene" stuff (like the "hidden-gene woma" or "hidden-gene Citrus pastel") is actually just one dominant or co-dominant mutation that was originally mistaken for something else, and mis-named, and then given the addendum "hidden gene" once it was discovered that it did something different than what it was thought to be (under the mistaken impression that it carried a 2nd, "hidden" gene).

NERD has already stated that the so-called "hidden gene" woma isn't in any way related to the "regular" woma, but Kevin thought they might've been the same when they were first imported so both were originally named "woma." Further breeding revealed that the "hidden gene" woma does a bunch of cool, crazy stuff when combined with lessers, etc., but the "regular" woma doesn't.

Based on my understanding, I don't think the "hidden gene woma" or "hidden gene Citrus" is really hiding anything more than, say, the yellowbelly or specter mutations -- all are fairly subtle single-gene mutations that just happen to do some wicked stuff when combined with the right animals. (I don't know as much about the "HG Citrus" though so I might be totally off on that one!)

This is correct. The HG woma is just a snake that was once misnamed a woma. It is not a woma and there is no hidden gene, just had to add the hidden gene to seperate it from the original woma.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

i wouldnt say "hidden" since the platty requires a gene from a normal looking animal that is a result of rdr's original platty daddy

Not sure what you mean ... To me the "platty" gene seems to be the most "hidden" of them all, from what I've read ..!

I didn't mention platty 'cos it seems to be a totally different situation from that of the HG woma and the HG Citrus ... The platty gene actually does seem to be kind of a "hidden" one since as you say, the platty carriers DO apparently just look like normals (at least as far as I know, unless there's some secret marker trait that we all aren't privy to ... )

[771subliminal]

This is correct. The HG woma is just a snake that was once misnamed a woma. It is not a woma and there is no hidden gene, just had to add the hidden gene to seperate it from the original woma.

so does the super hg woma die young like the pearl?

[WingedWolfPsion]

I think everyone was so excited over the Platinum genetics that they got completely carried away with the 'hidden gene' idea.

I also think that the 'hidden gene' animals really should be re-named. They need to have their own separate names to avoid confusion, and hey...isn't naming a new morph kind of fun?

The HG Woma deserves its own name. So does the HG citrus. If there is not really another gene in hiding, then 'Hidden Gene' is simply incorrect.

I've been very curious about the womas myself. Did NERD produce the pearl from HG womas, or from womas? What happens when you cross a HG woma with a woma?

I know that if no one knows, one of these days I am going to have to be brave enough to breed my womas together, and confirm the Pearl issues...simply because of all the confusion with the HG Womas. I just don't want to have to watch a gorgeous hatchling die of internal problems. It would be a shame if all this time we've been avoiding Woma X Woma due to the fact that HG Woma X HG Woma is lethal, though.

Does anyone out there have a solid answer to this question?

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I also think that the 'hidden gene' animals really should be re-named. They need to have their own separate names to avoid confusion, and hey...isn't naming a new morph kind of fun?

The HG Woma deserves its own name. So does the HG citrus. If there is not really another gene in hiding, then 'Hidden Gene' is simply incorrect.

I agree 100%!! ... Maybe if we all come up with a really cool name, NERD and everyone else will start using it ...

I've been very curious about the womas myself. Did NERD produce the pearl from HG womas, or from womas? What happens when you cross a HG woma with a woma?

I know that if no one knows, one of these days I am going to have to be brave enough to breed my womas together, and confirm the Pearl issues...simply because of all the confusion with the HG Womas. I just don't want to have to watch a gorgeous hatchling die of internal problems. It would be a shame if all this time we've been avoiding Woma X Woma due to the fact that HG Woma X HG Woma is lethal, though.

Does anyone out there have a solid answer to this question?

I don't have any solid answer either, though I'd love to know. My thought has been that it's the homozygous "HG woma" that is lethal, because that mutation seems to mesh so well with the BEL complex and the pearl kinda sorta looks like a homozygous BEL (not that I'm suggesting that the "HG woma" is an allele on that same locus, just that they seem somehow ... Related?) AND that the HG woma does such crazy stuff, but the regular woma seems to be a more run-of-the-mill straight-up pattern mutation.

At the same time, I wonder if there is no visual homozygous "regular" woma -- that it's a simple dominant mutation, like pinstripe might be, and that the "super" form looks just like the heterozygous. That thought isn't really based on much, though, other than the idea that I bet NERD has already tried it (especially back when it was thought that both "womas" were the same), and if it made something wicked cool we probably woulda seen it by now.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Possibly. But the Woma mutation also looks very similar to the spider mutation, and spider is homozygous lethal also.