RI / Chondroma - The Saga Continues

[Big Thunder]

Hopefully someone can post my previous thread(s) to this for a historical view. I can't seem to figure it out.

About three weeks ago I purchased a young adult female BP for my son. Very next day the BP is at the vet with symptoms thought to be GI. BP was then "hospitalized" for nearly ten days where the symptoms were determined to be RI instead of GI (determined through observation vs. my description of symptoms). During the hospitalization the BP was administered 4 - 5 Baytril (sp) injections. Doc seems to think there may be an underlying issue such as a chondroma (benign tumor on the trachea). We brought her home about a week ago and she went through a shed. Now the BP is actually sneezing and coughing up (projectile) mucus.

She now lives in a Reptile Basic cage with a what seems to be a perfectly controlled environment.

I guess I want to know opinions about her ability to overcome the symptoms, and if anyone has had experience nursing one back to health.

It has been offered to us to bring her back where we purchased her, but she will be destroyed there, most likely. I also don't want to trade her for another animal, as I will not take repeat business to the same shop.

I'm interested to hear your success stories.

[kc261]

I believe these are all of the relevant links:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=112079
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=112291
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=112313

[kc261]

I read your old threads, and I have to say, I just have a bad feeling about your vet. You took the snake there with classic RI symptoms, and the vet says no, it's not an RI, it's a GI. Later, the vet agrees it is an RI (perhaps after reading up on the subject?).

The vet recommended "carnivore care". Well, I don't know what this is, so I did a search on it, and found this:
http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vet...carnivore_care

Carnivore Care is a premium recovery food designed for carnivores that are unwilling to eat their normal diet. Formulated by animal nutritionists and veterinarians with exotic pet care expertise, Carnivore Care meets 100% of the needs of a sick or convalescing obligate carnivore. Carnivore Care is a 45% protein, 32% fat formulation with added vitamins and minerals. This specially formulated product contains easily digestible proteins derived from high quality egg and poultry sources to enhance nutritional absorption. This unique blend comes in a convenient powder formula that, when mixed with water, allows for just the right amount of Carnivore Care.

I don't see how such a product would be useful to a sick BP. Maybe one that was on death's door, but the thing is BPs can go months, even over a year without eating! So going without food for a short time while convalescing really isn't going to be that detrimental to their recovery or overall health. On the other hand, the stress caused by force feeding them, can definitely be detrimental!

Also, BPs, and reptiles in general, have very slow metabolisms and this makes them slow to recover from disease. For this reason, long courses of antibiotics are recommended, generally 30 days or so. Your snake should still be receiving antibiotics for the RI.

You do not mention getting a culture to determine which antibiotics will be effective. An experienced herp vet should know that some infections will respond to baytril, others will not, and thus a culture is highly recommended to determine with antibiotic to use. Otherwise, it is just a shot in the dark.

I also googled "chondroma snake" to try to find any info on this disease in our scaley friends. Interestingly enough, I found an article from 1999 which states:

This is the second report of tracheal chondroma in ball pythons. Tracheal chondromas are exceedingly rare in humans and domesticated animals, suggesting a possible predisposition of ball pythons for this neoplasm.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20095835

However, I think that if they really had any significant predisposition, it would be more widely known by now. There has been a HUGE explosion in reptile keeping, and BPs in particular, and veterinary medicine for reptiles, since 1999. Why can't I find any more info on it if this species is predisposed to this condition? Why doesn't it show up more often on bp.net? It seems to me the only logical answer is that they aren't predisposed to tracheal chondromas, or at least not to any large degree. So how likely is it that this vet, who had trouble diagnosing an RI, is now able to diagnose this relatively rare condition?

I know you have stated that this vet has 20 years of experience with exotics, but that can mean a wide variety of things. Are they a vet with 20 years of experience, 99.9% of which has been cats and dogs, but they do treat several birds or ferrets each year, and your snake is the first reptile they have ever seen? Some vets in that circumstance would still claim 20 years of experience with exotics. Even a vet with 20 years in an exotics specialty practice may have primarily worked with birds and small mammals, or even large exotics like tigers, but have very little reptile experience.

I would highly recommend 1 of 2 things. Either let us know where you live and the name of your vet, so hopefully someone here can confirm whether or not this vet is a good herp vet. Or, arrange a telephone consultation between yourself and Dr. Stahl (or one of the other very highly recommended herp vets, but Dr. Stahl is the best) and possibly your veterinarian also, to get a 2nd opinion and some sort of feeling of whether your vet is heading in the right direction or not.

[2kdime]

Heres my take

Did your vet do a culture and sensitivity test?

If the snake has a benign mass of some sort, then it's got a mass. I wouldn't expect it to cause the symptoms your describing.

It sounds like the snake has a CLASSIC example of a severe Respiratory Infection.

Without a Culture and Sensitivity test, and the correct antibiotics, theres not much you can do. Have you raised the heat to 85 cool side and 95 hot side?

At this point it sounds like the snake has a week at most left.

Im just being as honest with you as I can be, as I would want anyone else to be with me.

The snake needs the right antibiotic, but at this point, it might already be too late.

If the baytril didnt do anything, Id ask the vet tomorrow to do the C/S test and start her of Fortaz until the results come back in.