Line's don't matter??

[Freakie_frog]

I keep seeing this statement pop up that lines don't matter when it come to mutations. I have to wholeheartedly disagree. When it comes to pastel line's they most certainly do make a difference. Now there are exceptions to every rule but for the most part what follows holds true.

Line breeding animals for a specific trait is a method breeders use to emphasize a particular attribute they like in a mutation.

For example. These two animals are the same age in these Pics
Graziani Line pastels are bred to highlight the blushing and flames so they look like this as adults.


Where as NERD line Lemons are bred for their intense yellow color and stark black contrast..and do maintain that look even into adulthood like this 2 year old male below


Now this is not to say that you can't find lemons that look like Jungles or Jungles that are as bright as Lemons.

But I can tell you from experience with both line's there is a difference. And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference..

Is the Genetics the same..YES!! but the look of the offspring is so different there's no doubt that they are bred for two totally different looking animals.

[Kaorte]

I think the main confusion, especially with the pastel morph is that people ask "what line is this pastel?" expecting to get a straight response. But there is really no way to tell for sure what line it is unless you bought it knowing what line it was. When identifying a morph, there is usually a very obvious answer, when identifying lines, not so much.

I do agree that the different lines for each morph are very very different. I prefer the VPI axanthis to the TSK axanthic, but if you ask me to identify what line a particular axanthic is, I couldn't do it.

[Freakie_frog]

I think the main confusion, especially with the pastel morph is that people ask "what line is this pastel?" expecting to get a straight response. But there is really no way to tell for sure what line it is unless you bought it knowing what line it was. When identifying a morph, there is usually a very obvious answer, when identifying lines, not so much.

I do agree that the different lines for each morph are very very different. I prefer the VPI axanthis to the TSK axanthic, but if you ask me to identify what line a particular axanthic is, I couldn't do it.

Agreed.. many times there are great examples of two mutations that will look so simular that its impossible to tell. In those cases it isn't that the "Line" as much as our inability to tell it from any other and so it simply becomes a Pastel, Clown, or a Hypo..

Let me clear one thing up...LINES Matter in axanthics cause some aren't compatible with each other. So don't think any axanthic when bred to any axanthic will produce axanthics..

[Kaorte]

Agreed.. many times there are great examples of two mutations that will look so simular that its impossible to tell. In those cases it isn't that the "Line" as much as our inability to tell it from any other and so it simply becomes a Pastel, Clown, or a Hypo..

Let me clear one thing up...LINES Matter in axanthics cause some aren't compatible with each other. So don't think any axanthic when bred to any axanthic will produce axanthics..

Yeah I understand that bit, but I wouldn't be able to tell what line it was just from looking at it. So if someone was wondering if their two axanthics were compatible, it would be hard to identify if they were the same line or separate lines

[Freakie_frog]

So if someone was wondering if their two axanthics were compatible, it would be hard to identify if they were the same line or separate lines

Impossible..

[kc261]

And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference.

This is the important part, and the reason I will usually say the line doesn't matter as much as the look of the animal. While it is absolutely true that the line CAN make a big difference, it won't matter much if the breeders don't take care to maintain the features of the line.

If someone gets a male lemon pastel directly from NERD, but does not take care in which female normal they mate it to, not only to produce good pastels, but also to produce those that will feature the traits that make lemon pastels what they are (vivid yellow, etc), then the pastels they produce will have lost 50% of the modifying genes that make a lemon pastel what it is. Perhaps the next generation will be bred to a spider to make bees, and you can bet that breeder is not paying nearly as much attention to making a good lemon pastel as they are to making good bees, if they are paying any attention at all to quality. But the pastel offspring, which now have roughly 25% of the modifying genes that NERD so carefully selected for in their establishing of the lemon pastel line, will still be sold as lemon pastels.

So you can see how very quickly a snake from the lemon pastel line will lose almost all the qualities that make it a lemon pastel when breeders don't take care to maintain those qualities.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that the line can make a big difference IF the breeders have taken care to maintain that difference through selective breeding. But I bet with a little looking, one can also find 2 "lemon pastels" that are at least as different in their looks as the 2 pastels you posted, because many people who don't breed selectively will still apply the lemon pastel name to their offspring, regardless of whether or not those offspring fit the description of a lemon pastel anymore.

[OhhWatALoser]

This is the important part, and the reason I will usually say the line doesn't matter as much as the look of the animal. While it is absolutely true that the line CAN make a big difference, it won't matter much if the breeders don't take care to maintain the features of the line.

If someone gets a male lemon pastel directly from NERD, but does not take care in which female normal they mate it to, not only to produce good pastels, but also to produce those that will feature the traits that make lemon pastels what they are (vivid yellow, etc), then the pastels they produce will have lost 50% of the modifying genes that make a lemon pastel what it is. Perhaps the next generation will be bred to a spider to make bees, and you can bet that breeder is not paying nearly as much attention to making a good lemon pastel as they are to making good bees, if they are paying any attention at all to quality. But the pastel offspring, which now have roughly 25% of the modifying genes that NERD so carefully selected for in their establishing of the lemon pastel line, will still be sold as lemon pastels.

So you can see how very quickly a snake from the lemon pastel line will lose almost all the qualities that make it a lemon pastel when breeders don't take care to maintain those qualities.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that the line can make a big difference IF the breeders have taken care to maintain that difference through selective breeding. But I bet with a little looking, one can also find 2 "lemon pastels" that are at least as different in their looks as the 2 pastels you posted, because many people who don't breed selectively will still apply the lemon pastel name to their offspring, regardless of whether or not those offspring fit the description of a lemon pastel anymore.

this is why line doesn't matter, you can argue what the OP says, but not all lemons look like that and not all Graziani look like that. I've seen pastels without a line look better than those posted. You have to look at the animal not the label placed upon it. so this is why I saw line doesn't matter

[rebel750]

this is why line doesn't matter, you can argue what the OP says, but not all lemons look like that and not all Graziani look like that. I've seen pastels without a line look better than those posted. You have to look at the animal not the label placed upon it. so this is why I saw line doesn't matter

I agree most of the time the line doesnt really matter. It is the individual snake that matters to me.

My Pastel is of no apparent line and has very bright orange with faint yellow. I hope he keeps most of his color. I see low end Pastels that look more like normals when they are adults.

[juddb]

Just wanted to throw this in there, keeping documentation of your animal's lineage is important too.

[mason]

I keep seeing this statement pop up that lines don't matter when it come to mutations. I have to wholeheartedly disagree. When it comes to pastel line's they most certainly do make a difference. Now there are exceptions to every rule but for the most part what follows holds true.

Line breeding animals for a specific trait is a method breeders use to emphasize a particular attribute they like in a mutation.

For example. These two animals are the same age in these Pics
Graziani Line pastels are bred to highlight the blushing and flames so they look like this as adults.


Where as NERD line Lemons are bred for their intense yellow color and stark black contrast..and do maintain that look even into adulthood like this 2 year old male below


Now this is not to say that you can't find lemons that look like Jungles or Jungles that are as bright as Lemons.

But I can tell you from experience with both line's there is a difference. And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference..

Is the Genetics the same..YES!! but the look of the offspring is so different there's no doubt that they are bred for two totally different looking animals.

Some good points BUT.

What you have done is argue the benefits of SELECTIVE BREEDING, which no one will argue against, especially me with my selective breeding pastel obsession!

The line the snake comes from is not as important as it's physical appearance, how it's bred and what its bred to then play the largest part in what its offspring will look like not where the snake originated.


There are good grazianis and bad grazianis, good nerd lemons and bad nerd lemons (etc etc etc) no line produces consitantly amazing animals without good selective breeding. This is why the quality of the snake you buy and the quality of the animals you breed it to determine the quality of the offspring you'll produce.This is much more important than the tag associated wiht that snake, although it's nice to know it, it's not the most important factor.