Feeding questions

[UncleFester]

When I bought my BP from the breeder she said that he last ate last Saturday. She also had the babies on live hoppers. I've read everywhere to not feed live, so I ordered 10 frozen hoppers for him. I haven't attempted to try and feed him yet - I wasn't going to try until this weekend. My question is how do I offer the mouse.. Do I let it thaw out first and then offer it? If he doesn't eat it, can I refreeze it? And I plan on getting a piece of cardboard or something to put down for him to eat on, do I just lay the mouse on there or am I supposed to dangle? I apologize for such simple questions...just want to make sure I do everything right for the little guy.

[Kaorte]

Yes, you thaw out the mouse completely before feeding it. I like to let my mice/rats thaw on a heat mat for a couple hours in the snake room. By the time they are completely thawed, all the snakes are ready to eat.

I usually just dangle the mouse by the tail and they snatch it up rather fast although sometimes I will have to set the mouse down in the enclosure and leave the room before the snake will eat it. I usually dangle for 5 minutes and if they haven't struck, I leave the mouse in there overnight. If I leave it in there overnight I throw it out in the morning.

I wouldn't bother refreezing the hoppers since your snake will quickly outgrow them.

[UncleFester]

Thanks

I just found out the guy I was going to buy my hoppers from has just adult mice and rats. Would an adult mouse be too big for my BP when he's used to hoppers?

[iCandiBallPythons]

How old is the bp? Weight?

[Kaorte]

It really depends on the size of the snake. If the snake is above 100grams, I would go with a small adult mouse.

[UncleFester]

He's roughly 8 months or younger, not sure of weight.

What about rat pinkies?

[chapskis1]

If you can weigh the snake and the mouse, usually a good rule of thumb is that the snake can eat 10-15% of its weight. If you don't have access to a scale, you can probably guess and feed it prey no larger than the largest part of the snake's girth -- I would think an 8 month old BP should be able to take a small adult mouse without any difficulty.

Also -- do not use your hand to dangle the mouse! If your hand is warmer than the mouse, it could accidentaly strike your hand instead. I use hemostats which you can pick up from most of the online herp companies. Otherwise, a set of kitchen tongs would work in a pinch -- as long as they don't have sharp edges!!

Later,

George

[withonor]

When you thaw out the rodents you want to make sure they also get warm enough that they resemble live ones. A cold corpse that is just beyond the stage of an ice cude will probably get refused. When you touch the rat it shouldn't feel warm or cold to you. I put them in a plastic bag, fill the bathroom sink with warm water and submerge them for awhile. After that I warm up their heads with a blow dryer to give the snakes a good target for striking.

Don't refreeze them. Only bad thing about frozen is you have to toss it if it gets refused.

Rat pinky is probably too small depending on how that is being defined by the seller. More likely you'll be looking for a rat fuzzy or pup, or a mouse weanling or adult.

[fire-eyes]

First, use very small rats if you can, as they are supposed to be more nutritious. I'm not a scientist but that's the going theory. Mice are not bad, but rats are supposed to be better.

Second, size. The general rule is to aim for using one item, and that if the snake were to eat it, it would leave a moderate (not massive) bulge in its widest point. If you look at its widest point, and then its neck, you may think this is insane advice. It took me a long time to try it and mine was fine, they really are quite capable. Failing one item of appropriate size, two of a smaller size is okay. Three is too many.

Third, where to feed? This can start arguments. Some people just feed the snake in their home. Others prefer to take the snake out and put it into a dedicated feeding container. Reasons that are often cited for feeding it outside of its home include reducing the chance of cage aggression (thinking your hand is food), reducing the chance of ingesting substrate, and so on. Personally, I used to feed in its home. Then one day it ingested a very small piece of shredded bark, nothing serious but it really freaked me out. From then on I have fed in another enclosure. This is working out well for me, because when the snake gets put into this enclosure, it KNOWS it's going to be fed and it goes into feeding mode.

Fourth, preparing the meal. There are many ways of doing this. But the basics are to get it thawed out and then warm enough to be an obvious target to their thermal sensors. You don't want it too hot, or things can get messy, either by the item bursting during heating, or the item being "overcooked" and thus having a better chance of bursting when the snake hits it.

Fifth, presenting. Once the item is fully thawed out and also warm enough to be noticed by the snake, use something like tongs or forceps to present. If the snake is still small, it may make sense to hold the item so it is facing the snake horizontally, face-first, this will help the snake have a better chance of getting it head-on. Never present with your hands, the snake will simply mistake your warm, item-smelling fingers for the item sometimes.

Details of how I thaw and present, there are many ways, this works for me:

1) Leave the items out at room temperature to begin thawing, in the general area of the snakes home
2) Immediately take the snake out and handle it as usual, in another room
3) After I'm done, I intentionally bring the snake near the thawing food until it picks up the smell. Get the snake out of striking distance, because they just might have a go at it right there.
4) Put the snake in its feeding enclosure. Get your hands and fingers out of there quickly, a snake that is really in the mood may have a swing at you
5) Put enough water -- WATER ONLY, no items yet -- in a bowl that will handle the food item(s), microwave it until it is close to but not actually boiling
6) Take the water out, let it cool. If you have a temp gun, let the surface drop to 140F (60C)
7) Place the item(s) in the water, let them thaw, and let them reach about 105F (40C)
8) Present with tongs or forceps. Presenting them horizontally and face-first (grabbing by the back skin/fur) may be needed for young snakes. Get it into the enclosure quickly and hold it until the strike happens. If you are too slow, the snake may lunge out at the item and find itself falling out of the enclosure.
9) At the moment of strike, open the tongs or forceps. Extremely strong strikes may grab the tongs or forceps with the item, if you are fast enough you can push the snake off of them, but if you are slow, you'll have to let go and wait for the snake to release them

Things vary a bit when you move to larger items, as they will take longer to thaw, thus the water should maybe be 150F (65C) but not much hotter as that could cause bursting problems.

If the snake hits but later drops it, simply re-use your still-warm water to bring the temp back up, and try again. If the snake keeps getting confused because it is grabbing in the middle of the body and then doesn't know what to do with it, be sure to present it horizontally (grab by the back fur or skin), and face first. You may have to repeat this for stubborn feeders. After about three or four re-presents, the snake will probably get annoyed and you'll have to try again some other time.

Don't panic if they won't eat. They can and do go months in the wild without eating. Many people report that their BPs regularly go on feeding strikes, but that it eventually ends. If it starts losing weight, that is when it is time to be concerned. If this persists, a visit to the vet and a forced feeding may be in order, though this should be a last option as it is very stressful to the snake.

Hopefully this wasn't too confusing, these are the tactics and conclusions I've come to after a lot of experimenting and trial and error. Each snake can be different and react well (or not) to certain tactics.

[Kaorte]

I'm sorry fire-eyes but I have to disagree with some of the points you made. Feeding does not need to be that complicated.

There is no proof that rats are more nutritious than mice. Feeding one prey item is easier than feeding multiples, but there is nothing wrong with feeding multiple prey items in one sitting. I have fed up to 4 mice in one sitting with no problems.

Cage aggression does not exist in ball pythons. Moving them to another enclosure will only increase the chance of getting bit. I never come into physical contact with my snakes on feeding day and I never get bit. As long as you feed them enough and your husbandry is right, there should be no problem with biting.

I used to use tongs but instead I heat up the head of the rodent with a hair dryer and hold it by the tail when offering. Never been bit. I like to hold on for a little while once they strike and wiggle it so they keep a strong feeding response.

I don't know why you would bring the snake to the thawing food and not the other way arund, you are just asking for a bite handling your snake on feeding day.

I find the most efficient way to thaw rodents is under a heat lamp or on a heat pad for a few hours.