Is temperment genetic?

[cinderbird]

I've been having a short discussion with some other reptile keepers and we're kind of at a stand still with a topic. To be honest, I've never talked about this with anyone because I feel its a non issue, especially with BPs, but i know some people who think that (like in mammals) temperment has a genetic component.

The fox experiment was brought up. My logic is, we go OUT of our way to explain how reptiles are not like mammals. Why would we backtrack on this and say that breeding for good temperament creates offspring with good temperament. To be honest, I have no clue. I've heard anecdotal evidence of mean females producing nice offspring, and nice females producing mean offspring.

What do you think?

[p3titexburial]

Oh, this one's interesting.

I'd have to say that with mammals, it's not that 100% of the offspring produced are "nice," rather, it's that gradually the amount of "mean" offspring are reduced. The reason animals are aggressive is because they have genes that cause them to be so for survival requirements--an animal that's too docile quickly gets picked off by predators. Therefore, it might be looked at as not having "nice" genes but malfunctioning "mean" genes.

If the malfunctioning mean genes keep getting passed down generation by generation by generation until that's all there is, what you may end up with is a completely docile reptile. But it wouldn't be an animal that has affection, like a cat or a dog, since you'd have to have basic nurturing and social gene sequences for that. It may just end up being a snake that simply doesn't know how to fear which in turn doesn't bite, or hiss, or musk.

Some dogs, were selectively bred to remain neonatal, if you look at adult wolves, they don't keep the puppy tendencies of constantly trying to please. Some dogs had minimal amounts of tweaking in this aspect and we call them "aloof" or "cat-like" even though in reality they're just normal, like wild dogs. This is why dingos are considered on the list of dangerous animals.

Cats, however much they're considered "wild" really aren't as undomesticated as some people think--nab a kitten from a feral litter and it will still become tame in a matter of weeks even though by logic, a wild animal should not recognize people as their "family." Cats are also not social animals, coming together only to breed and for a little while after they're born--yet they actively seek human attention. I always found this fascinating.

A lion and tiger and cougar may still contemplate eating you if it gets hungry enough.

Both of these animals somehow lost their fear of humans and, in the process, truly became pets.

(btw, this is all speculative, as reptiles aren't mammals)

[cinderbird]

Oh, this one's interesting.

I'd have to say that with mammals, it's not that 100% of the offspring produced are "nice," rather, it's that gradually the amount of "mean" offspring are reduced. The reason animals are aggressive is because they have genes that cause them to be so for survival requirements--an animal that's too docile quickly gets picked off by predators. Therefore, it might be looked at as not having "nice" genes but malfunctioning "mean" genes.

If the malfunctioning mean genes keep getting passed down generation by generation by generation until that's all there is, what you may end up with is a completely docile reptile. But it wouldn't be an animal that has affection, like a cat or a dog, since you'd have to have basic nurturing and social gene sequences for that. It may just end up being a snake that simply doesn't know how to fear which in turn doesn't bite, or hiss, or musk.

Some dogs, were selectively bred to remain neonatal, if you look at adult wolves, they don't keep the puppy tendencies of constantly trying to please. Some dogs had minimal amounts of tweaking in this aspect and we call them "aloof" or "cat-like" even though in reality they're just normal, like wild dogs. This is why dingos are considered on the list of dangerous animals.

Cats, however much they're considered "wild" really aren't as undomesticated as some people think--nab a kitten from a feral litter and it will still become tame in a matter of weeks even though by logic, a wild animal should not recognize people as their "family." Cats are also not social animals, coming together only to breed and for a little while after they're born--yet they actively seek human attention. I always found this fascinating.

A lion and tiger and cougar may still contemplate eating you if it gets hungry enough.

Both of these animals somehow lost their fear of humans and, in the process, truly became pets.

(btw, this is all speculative, as reptiles aren't mammals)

I appreciate your response thank you.

Maybe affection was what i was thinking about? But like you said, reptiles arent affectionate. They are curious, but they dont care about pleasing humans in any way shape or form.

[p3titexburial]

=D

Oh but recently I saw the video of attention seeking tegus--it's totally nuts! That may be a reptile worth trying to breed for temperment as it could possibly get somewhere.

Although... I wasn't exactly sure if they were simply like "Hey, who's this dude? Get him outta our pen!" or "Oh, hey, I recognize this guy--yeah, yeah, he's the one that feeds us! Let's go say hello!" I'm not sure whether they're social creatures by nature or whether they take care of their young, since that could possibly lead to affection rather than not caring.

Then again... if you think about it, there's evidence dinosaurs use to travel in herds and raised their young, even though they're reptiles.

Up in the air.

[aaramire]

Interesting point you brought up about kittens, it seems like no matter where a kitten comes from, for the most part they are tamed fairly easily. It is quite fascinating, because just a few months later, this would not be possible.

Onto the point of reptiles, I think that it all depends on the animal. I have been fairly lucky and had all relatively "nice" snakes, and have not have to put too much work into them. Although I am still hook training my retic, just to be safe. This has been said already, but I do not think that you can breed for a temperment like you can breed for color or pattern. I think that some reptiles are just innately more friendly then others, and I think with proper training and such that a reptile's temperment can be altered.

[mainbutter]

Temperment is certainly genetic, heck it is genetic in humans. Now the genes aren't the be-all-end-all determination of how an animal may behave or feel, it certainly is a factor.

As to how much you can "breed for temperment" in ball pythons before you actually start seeing results...

[cinderbird]

Interesting point you brought up about kittens, it seems like no matter where a kitten comes from, for the most part they are tamed fairly easily. It is quite fascinating, because just a few months later, this would not be possible.

Onto the point of reptiles, I think that it all depends on the animal. I have been fairly lucky and had all relatively "nice" snakes, and have not have to put too much work into them. Although I am still hook training my retic, just to be safe. This has been said already, but I do not think that you can breed for a temperment like you can breed for color or pattern. I think that some reptiles are just innately more friendly then others, and I think with proper training and such that a reptile's temperment can be altered.

this is exactly what i think. thank you.

I dont have much experience with truly unfriendly snakes so i really cant say. All of my snakes are at least handle-able (even if im wearing long sleeves to handle them sometimes). And plus i've done no breeding yet so i have no concrete evidence either way.

[cinderbird]

Temperment is certainly genetic, heck it is genetic in humans. Now the genes aren't the be-all-end-all determination of how an animal may behave or feel, it certainly is a factor.

As to how much you can "breed for temperment" in ball pythons before you actually start seeing results...

do you think its the same thing from amphibians to reptiles to mammals though?

do you think that a mean female will automatically have mean offspring or that there is an increased chance of that happening?

I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on the affection part of the topic that was mentioned above.

[Skiploder]

this is exactly what i think. thank you.

I dont have much experience with truly unfriendly snakes so i really cant say. All of my snakes are at least handle-able (even if im wearing long sleeves to handle them sometimes). And plus i've done no breeding yet so i have no concrete evidence either way.

I've never come across a snake that - with a little time, patience and effort - will become somewhat accepting of handling. It all comes down to how much time the keeper is willing to invest.

I have never had experience with a FRIENDLY snake. I've had experiences with snakes totally accustomed to handling, and I've had experience with snakes that have been raised to adulthood with very little interaction with humans. That still does not classify them as friendly or unfriendly - it classifies them as accustomed or not accustomed to being handled and restrained.

I can honestly say that all of the cribos I've ever produced and kept have been very handleable - so I guess I can make the argument that drys that I produced have excellent temperaments..right?

However some I've sold I have taken back because they bit or acted aggressively towards their keepers who became afraid of them. So does this mean that the temperament on my animals is subpar? No -with reptiles, while temperament varies from animal to animal, acclimation to handling is learned.

As for temperament being genetic in humans - I think that if you looked at studies over the years, the accepted amount of genetic influence on temperament is considered moderate.

I think what is accepted is that temperament is a combination of environment, sibling and parent relationships mixed with a healthy dollop of individuality, with just a dash of genetic predisposition thrown in.

Having more than one kid keys you in real quick as to how two parents with similar personality types can raise children with wildly different temperaments. Personality and environment influence temperament. Yes it can be argued that a child can be predisposed to aggression or anxiety for example. But how that child is taught to cope with this, how he or she is parented and the environment they are raised in ultimately determines their temperament.

With snakes I think that the genetic contribution is limited mainly to species type and the rest is environmental and/or learned via interaction with the keeper.