I need some help asap!

[cornball252]

Ok first off how can you tell a ugly cinny form a normal?

also are these cinnies?




And when a spider has wobble what are the down sides of that?

Thanks for your help!

[snake-zone.dk]

yes they are cinnamons.. not bad ons.. but not the greatest i'll seen..

[cornball252]

Thanks for the quick reply im gunna get some shots of my other ball pythons up for you guys. By the way, I'm a newbie to the forums! so far I'm liking them!

[Pinoy Pythons]

Yes they are cinnes. As for good and bad looking, I prefer cinnies w/ lots of floating alien heads and high flames.

For the spider wobble, I cant see nothing wrong on having a spider that manifest it.

[cornball252]

Thanks for all the help! im new-ish to the Ball python industry kinda putting my Colubrid breeding on the side. once i hatched out my first clutch of BP's i was hooked! ^_^

[EmberBall]

Actually, pretty nice cinny. I like it alot.

Dave

[BigLu]

that would definetly be a cinni

[cornball252]

Thanks guys i got some more pics coming up, of normals with weird patterns!

[WingedWolfPsion]

Definitely a cinnamon. The cinnamon gene slightly alters the structure of the snake's muzzle. It is narrowed and distinctive. Once you've compared a few to normals, you will see what I mean.

This altered structure results in duckbilling when the gene is doubled (super-cinnamons are duckbilled). This does them no harm and doesn't interfere with their eating or anything.

The spider gene is tied to a neurological defect people call 'wobbles'. In reality, affected spiders may wobble, list to one side, be apparently unclear on which direction is up, and a few will spin if touched on the head. Except in a few rare cases of 'train wrecks' (badly affected individuals), this trait does not interfere with their eating or breeding. However, it can make them prone to missing when they strike at prey. Fortunately, they tend to be persistant chowhounds once started, and they'll try again until they hit the target.

Wobbles have gotten more 'press' lately than duckbilling. It seems people are willing to accept a minor malformation of the face more readily than impaired movement.

There has been a trend toward people breeding only unaffected spiders, and there have been claims of 'there's never been a wobbler in any of the offspring I've produced!' and so on. However, this is a bit suspect. Even if true, it may not be true for the offspring of those offspring. This trait is tied directly to the spider gene, and may skip generations, but non-wobblers will produce wobblers, and vice-versa. The trait doesn't always display in hatchlings--it may develop later on. No one other than NERD has been around long enough to test whether the trait can be bred out...and NERD has concluded that it can't, last I heard.

It's hard to say if it's possible to breed for less-affected spiders by discarding the more seriously affected individuals from the breeding pool. The best answer is 'maybe', but it's far from certain. It's important to remember that this is not the result of inbreeding. It's part of the spider mutation itself. Spiders are almost exclusively outcrossed, because spiderXspider breedings result only in a clutch of spiders and normals--there is no super form, which probably means that 25% of such clutches fail to develop (a lethal super like Woma's pearl, only causing death before hatching rather than after).

Another gene linked to deformities or aberrant traits is Caramel albino. Caramels are highly prone to spinal kinking, and this is true of all lines of caramel albino (Crider has now been proven NOT to be a line of caramel albino, but instead is a seperate gene that produces a similar appearance). One individual has now claimed incubating at extremely low temperatures of 87 to 88 max prevents this problem, but that needs to be duplicated many times before it can be stated for certain. If this fix doesn't prove out...then, caramels kink, just as spiders wobble. There is no evidence that outcrossing affects the problem at all, and no evidence that selective breeding does, either. Many severely affected caramels eat and grow fine, but occasional 'train wrecks' are fatally impaired, just as with spiders.

I think it's important for newbies to realize what these issues are in depth, because they'll be hearing a lot of very vocal opinions on them. There are breeders who believe that 'wobble spiders shouldn't be bred, ever!'--and that kinked caramels shouldn't be bred. Few people breed kinked caramels, perhaps to be on the safe side, but there's no evidence it would make any difference. It's a holdover from a time when it was assumed that the kinking was the result of inbreeding in caramel albino lines, and was caused by a seperate recessive gene--but it's not.

MANY people breed wobble spiders, because the trait is very very common in the spider morph. My breeder male wobbles--the offspring he has produced include some wobblers, and some that don't appear affected. This is par for the course, and it's about the same as someone breeding a non-wobbler. He's pretty--wobbling isn't the only trait people should consider seriously when looking at a spider, at least in my opinion.

I sort of think people are trying to breed only unaffected animals to make themselves feel better--these impairing traits are somewhat disturbing, and the illusion that we could fix them through selective breeding may be seductive because of that. But at some point, reality has to be faced. Either the trait is worth the side-effects, or it's not.
I highly suspect that spiders will be considered 'worth it', but caramel albinos may eventually be replaced by Criders, if they prove to combine similarly with other morphs.

[cornball252]

Definitely a cinnamon. The cinnamon gene slightly alters the structure of the snake's muzzle. It is narrowed and distinctive. Once you've compared a few to normals, you will see what I mean.

This altered structure results in duckbilling when the gene is doubled (super-cinnamons are duckbilled). This does them no harm and doesn't interfere with their eating or anything.

The spider gene is tied to a neurological defect people call 'wobbles'. In reality, affected spiders may wobble, list to one side, be apparently unclear on which direction is up, and a few will spin if touched on the head. Except in a few rare cases of 'train wrecks' (badly affected individuals), this trait does not interfere with their eating or breeding. However, it can make them prone to missing when they strike at prey. Fortunately, they tend to be persistant chowhounds once started, and they'll try again until they hit the target.

Wobbles have gotten more 'press' lately than duckbilling. It seems people are willing to accept a minor malformation of the face more readily than impaired movement.

There has been a trend toward people breeding only unaffected spiders, and there have been claims of 'there's never been a wobbler in any of the offspring I've produced!' and so on. However, this is a bit suspect. Even if true, it may not be true for the offspring of those offspring. This trait is tied directly to the spider gene, and may skip generations, but non-wobblers will produce wobblers, and vice-versa. The trait doesn't always display in hatchlings--it may develop later on. No one other than NERD has been around long enough to test whether the trait can be bred out...and NERD has concluded that it can't, last I heard.

It's hard to say if it's possible to breed for less-affected spiders by discarding the more seriously affected individuals from the breeding pool. The best answer is 'maybe', but it's far from certain. It's important to remember that this is not the result of inbreeding. It's part of the spider mutation itself. Spiders are almost exclusively outcrossed, because spiderXspider breedings result only in a clutch of spiders and normals--there is no super form, which probably means that 25% of such clutches fail to develop (a lethal super like Woma's pearl, only causing death before hatching rather than after).

Another gene linked to deformities or aberrant traits is Caramel albino. Caramels are highly prone to spinal kinking, and this is true of all lines of caramel albino (Crider has now been proven NOT to be a line of caramel albino, but instead is a seperate gene that produces a similar appearance). One individual has now claimed incubating at extremely low temperatures of 87 to 88 max prevents this problem, but that needs to be duplicated many times before it can be stated for certain. If this fix doesn't prove out...then, caramels kink, just as spiders wobble. There is no evidence that outcrossing affects the problem at all, and no evidence that selective breeding does, either. Many severely affected caramels eat and grow fine, but occasional 'train wrecks' are fatally impaired, just as with spiders.

I think it's important for newbies to realize what these issues are in depth, because they'll be hearing a lot of very vocal opinions on them. There are breeders who believe that 'wobble spiders shouldn't be bred, ever!'--and that kinked caramels shouldn't be bred. Few people breed kinked caramels, perhaps to be on the safe side, but there's no evidence it would make any difference. It's a holdover from a time when it was assumed that the kinking was the result of inbreeding in caramel albino lines, and was caused by a seperate recessive gene--but it's not.

MANY people breed wobble spiders, because the trait is very very common in the spider morph. My breeder male wobbles--the offspring he has produced include some wobblers, and some that don't appear affected. This is par for the course, and it's about the same as someone breeding a non-wobbler. He's pretty--wobbling isn't the only trait people should consider seriously when looking at a spider, at least in my opinion.

I sort of think people are trying to breed only unaffected animals to make themselves feel better--these impairing traits are somewhat disturbing, and the illusion that we could fix them through selective breeding may be seductive because of that. But at some point, reality has to be faced. Either the trait is worth the side-effects, or it's not.
I highly suspect that spiders will be considered 'worth it', but caramel albinos may eventually be replaced by Criders, if they prove to combine similarly with other morphs.

Thank you sooooo much! I have been waiting for a explanation like the one you have provided!