How Frequently Do You Feed Your BPs?

[J.Bissell]

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved.

I feed live, and ever 7 days or so.

SoCaliSon and rabernet thanks for those posts, Kudos. I wholeheartedly think it's up to the keeper as to what to feed their snakes. But ya'lls posts just made me feel much better about feeding live. I've never had any problems feeding live, nor do I know any snake keepers personally that have had problems feeding live.

It doesn't seem to be a prevailing feeling here, but I've been to other forums where if you're feeding live, you're almost crucified. It's just pure ignorance. It can be done safely.

Also, just to add to the humane argument... Yeah your snake can kill live prey, but it's extremely efficient and humane. Then compare that to some of the ways humans kill the food that we eat. Ever visit a slaughter house? Thats far less humane than how a snake dispatches prey. Ever see a hunter kill deer, or bear, or... fill in the blank?

Just goes to show there is a double standard when it comes to feeding snakes.

That's just my .02.

J.B.

[missi182]

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved.

Few threads stick to the topic 100% and the discussion about what kind of prey owners use is relevant, I think 'hijacking' a thread is more when it goes completely off topic. Anyway, learning in fun right and your 2 cents add to the 'learning'.

[SoCaliSon]

Thanks for the Kudos J.Biss ...

Anyway, learning in fun right and your 2 cents add to the 'learning'.

I completely agree...

I find that the knowledge of experienced peers is priceless. We can read about the bottom line facts... But the dialog that takes place in these educated discussions/debates is where true progressive learning takes place. We should never stop questioning what we do.

[FireproofGorilla]

I totally agree with you, Argentra, to a point. Mila's not quite big enough (in my opinion) for a larger prey item. BPs will eat 2-3 prey items in a sitting. In their natural habitat, BPs infiltrate rat/mouse holes and eat the several mice inside. Then they rest in the exsisting burrow to digest. The size of the prey item should be no longer than twice the length of the snake's head and no wider than the widest part of the body. Mila's just not there yet. I'll have no problem giving her larger prey items when she's ready, not me. I'll usually offer her three items, but she knows when she's done. She usually only eats two and I'll just refreeze the remaining one (another benefit of feeding f/t for you pro-live out there). I'm not totally against feeding live. For instance, if you've tried everything you can, feed live as a last resort. But be patient and strong, Mila doesn't like her f/t mice dangled in front of her (some do). She just likes them warmed and set in front of her. She'll sniff'em out for about 10-20 mins, but then she just swallows'em!

After this shed (which should come off within the next 48 hours due to the fact that she's no longer "in blue"), she'll undoubtedly be ready for a small mouse. I'm against Powerfeeding for size as well, because studies show that Powerfeeding can cut your snake's lifespan by 75%! (i.e. a 20-30 year lifespan is now cut down to 5-6 years) I have yet to see a powereater over the age of 6 years old.

I had a BP in HS that had complications with a small mouse. Us herps just need to be careful not to overdue it or underdo it. A snake feeding is one of God's works of art. We all know that there's a medium we must follow to insure the healthiest, happiest and long-lived possible pets we can! Keep up the good work, people!

[FireproofGorilla]

That's exactly what I mean. I want the burger, I don't want to slit the cow's throat. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to eat it b/c we're omnivores. My body knows it needs the fats, lipids, proteins, and vitamins that I can't get elsewhere. Snakes get everything from one meal (calcium from the bones, etc.). It is ultimately the decision of the keeper. I just recommend f/t. It's safer and I don't have to watch either animal suffer or get hurt.

However, a snake that is fed live prey is very unlikely to convert to f/t. Some will only eat live. I'll tell you to do whatever benefits your reptile the most. Mine just happens to be a f/t eater. If your snake only eats live, feed it live. By no means is anyone to starve their snake. No animal deserves that as it is a very painful and cruel experience.

But if you're just in this for the live feedings, you may want to reconsider your means of owning a snake.

This is a classic debate in the herp society. Watch some professional breeders (http://www.snakebytes.tv), they feed f/t/pre-killed to their biggest monsters. Who am I to tell you how to feed your child? That's not what I'm doing. I'm simply providing information to those who want it, the very purpose of the forums.

* Bissell, when I say "you" or "your" in this post, it's implying all herps. None of my comments are directly objected to you or your reptiles. I simply quoted you b/c your post sparked this post. Thanks for the post!

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved.

I feed live, and ever 7 days or so.

SoCaliSon and rabernet thanks for those posts, Kudos. I wholeheartedly think it's up to the keeper as to what to feed their snakes. But ya'lls posts just made me feel much better about feeding live. I've never had any problems feeding live, nor do I know any snake keepers personally that have had problems feeding live.

It doesn't seem to be a prevailing feeling here, but I've been to other forums where if you're feeding live, you're almost crucified. It's just pure ignorance. It can be done safely.

Also, just to add to the humane argument... Yeah your snake can kill live prey, but it's extremely efficient and humane. Then compare that to some of the ways humans kill the food that we eat. Ever visit a slaughter house? Thats far less humane than how a snake dispatches prey. Ever see a hunter kill deer, or bear, or... fill in the blank?

Just goes to show there is a double standard when it comes to feeding snakes.

That's just my .02.

J.B.

[FireproofGorilla]

I disagree with you, CaliSon. I don't doubt that if given live, Mila would constrict to kill. I just don't want a rat taking a piece of her on the way out. I can see where you're coming from though. However, I fail to see where a snake constricting is comparable to a human chewing. I'm not worried about her chipping a tooth on a mouse, which is what your post implies. Let me provide counterpoint:

1. Nature designed us to hunt and kill animals to eat as well. How do you explain vegetarians? I agree that constricting is instinct, therefore, how could a snake forget or lose touch with it? Breathing, eating, and survival are all instincts. Have you forgotten how to do any of the above?

I am not forcing my snake to do or not do anything. She is very free-willed. If she stops eating f/t, then I'll move her to live. She evidently has no problem with it. I've never forced her to do anything.

2. There is no evidence or studies to support your claim of "degraded" nutrients in frozen food. How many frozen foods do we eat? If I put whey protein into a frozen shake, is the protein going to "degrade"? No. I'll still reap the full benefits than if I put it in water. O2 freezes, the SpO2 levels in frozen, unclotted blood is the same in thawed. When your snake kills that rat, the SpO2 drops rapidly. They get their O2 from the environment like every creature on earth does, so I'm sorry if I don't see this as an issue. The snake's SpO2 is important, not the food's.

I'm not bashing your live feedings. I'm just defending my stance on the subject like I should. That's what makes a good debate!

But, SoCaliSon, I'm sure you're a great keeper b/c you obviously care very much for your reptile(s) and that's all it takes to make me happy. We just need every herp as involved as you in the care of their creatures! So, thank you for showing your enthusiasm and concern!

To answer the thread question I feed every Friday... and they eat readily.

To put in my two cents about the Live vs. F/T...

I am not going to knock anyones tried and true methods of feeding... It is your choice on how you want to feed the snake. This is only my opinion ... I personally feed Stunned Live. I think the only reason F/T exists is for the conveniece of the human and not for the benefit of the snake. I am going to to split this into a couple key points.

1. Nature designed our snakes to hunt and kill live prey. Snakes are not scavengers. Maybe it happens but I have never heard of a wild snake ingesting something that was dead when they found it. It is one of my snakes primal intinctual behaviors to find that warm little animal... attack, constrict them and swallow them. I personally think it is borderline cruel to keep a captive snake and neglect them of this behavior. When a snake stops contricting before it eats... That is sad, as it is just loosing touch with it's natural behaviors.

This is my Favorite point to make on this issue...
What if we forced you to eat Mushed up food through a straw for the rest of your life because there was a danger of you chipping a tooth on a bone. No more chewing cause it's dangerous... Even though that is what we have our teeth for! Eventually our jaw muscles would turn incredibly weak. Then if we ever wanted to use our teeth again they would be almost useless becasue your jaws muscles are worthless. A snake contricting it's food is like us chewing... It's how they were designed to do it. Don't neglect them of chewing their food!

You are forcing your snake to feed in an unnatural way until that is all he used to. Not Good. It is extremely rare for a snake to take F/T on the first try because snakes are not built to recognize dead things as prey... I hate saying it like this but sadly this is what happens... The owner decides F/T is the more convenient way to go (You can easily feed a freshly killed or stunned mouse to the snake... Why crappy frozen stuff???... Becasue it's convenient for YOU)... Then they start trying to feed F/T and most of the time the only way to get a snake to take it is to let it starve until it decides that it will take the F/T. I know "Starve" sounds bad; But a natural predator is only going to take a dead prey item if it is tricked to think that it is alive, or is starving and takes it as a last resort.

2. My Snakes Deserve the Freshems'!!! I looked and looked but I can't find the article I was reding on this. But in a live rat everything is as fresh as could be. The Brain Fluids, Bone Marrow, Oxygenation Level in the blood... are all very good for your snake. All of these things are gone or degraded in F/T. Snakes can survive on F/T... and whether or not you can tell a difference in health on one fed F/T vs Live is very hard to tell, you would have to consider behavior as well as vitamin and nutrient levels. Personally if you ask me the healthier snake would be the one can best exercise their natural instictual behaviors without an issue. A snake fed F/T for years would probably have no idea how to handle a live prey item as he has not been allowed to feed that way... The way nature intended them to eat.

3. Humane? C'mon this is the oldest animal activity on earth... Animals eat eachother... All the way down to Bacterial level... In order for one life to live... something else must die. It works that way for every living organism on earth. This is why rodents have so many babies... Becuase they serve as such a vital part in the food chain feeding larger predators. The only possible down side for the snake that I could possibly think of from feeding live would be the risk of possible injury from defensive prey. 99 out of 100 times if you are feeding the proper sized prey item to a healthy hungry snake... There will be no injury. There will always be that risk though which is a little to big for some... Maybe even me...

So considering all of the above... I just take the paper bag and give it a good smack on the ground before I dump them in. The rat is alive, warm and moving... Just has the wits knocked out... And there is virtually no risk of him trying to fight back.

[SoCaliSon]

Alright!! Nice constructive debate going... I agree with some of the points you make Gorilla... I just wanted to clarify a couple of things that may have been taken wrong.

First with the chewing analogy... I like to try to create comparisons in which people can directly relate to incease effectivness. We have teeth becasue chewing is the first step in the human digestive process. We all know snakes don't chew their food... Instead the first step for them in digesting is to contsrict to kill. We get our food ready to swallow by chewing... they do it by constricting. The analogy was meant to show that to feed f/t becasue your snake might get injured while contricting live prey, would be like somebody serving you perchewed food your entire life through a straw out of the danger you might chip a tooth while chewing. You could argue whether you blend a burger or eat it in bites you will get all the same stuff... But think about the mental effect that years of not being able to exercise your natural feeding behavior would have on you, Even if you were raised like that from birth and you never chewed a bite in your life. Not to mention long term physical muscular effects.

You said..."I agree that constricting is instinct, therefore, how could a snake forget or lose touch with it?"

Some snakes take F/T in the same way they would take a live rat... With attack... contriction... ingestion...
IMO if your snakes stops contricting it is time to start taking steps to get them back into the habit. Because the fact is that you CAN break an animal of it's intinctual behaviors, especially in captive bred animals. All you have to do is provide an environment where they do not need to exercise those behaviors for an extended amount of time. Put a perfectly healthy person a machine that breathes for them for years... Then take them off of it... Chances are they have lost touch eith the area of the brain that automatically tells you to breathe.

As far as the Vegetarian argument that is a whole different debate I will try not to get to far into. I will make just a couple points... The two pointy teeth in my mouth are obviously not there for chewing salad. While studying anthropolgy I learned that there was actually an early race of hominid dating back thousands of years that was entirely vegetarian... Wanna guess what happened??? They died off.


"There is no evidence or studies to support your claim of "degraded" nutrients in frozen food."

As far as nutrition goes... Everything I said above about the oxygenation level in the blood ... and the freshness of fluids in the tissue ... Those are all true. It is the same with the food we freeze for our own human consumption. With the features of the human body we can easily tell who is healthy and who maybe doesn't eat the best. Snakes are different. All we really look at to determine a snakes health is that it eats, that it sheds, and that it sh*ts. Does that mean that those are the only factors related to their health? A person fed junk food their entire life still eats, grows, and defecates... But that by no means does it say that the person is in good health. There is still a lot of research to be done as far as health and nutrition in snakes go, but to accept that you are doing everything right for your snake because it eats sheds and poops I think is falling short because a sickly or malnurished animal could do the same thing. There was a great point in the article i found ( I will post a link bellow)... But it was along these lines. Take your newborn baby to the doctor and tell him that you are planning on raising your baby on frozen food alone and they will call child protective services on you. Maybe a baby could survive on a frozen food diet...but would obviously would not be as healthy as if they were allowed to eat fresh food and who knows what kind of long term effects would be suffered. I think it is obvious... Fresh food will always offer more benifit than something frozen for an extended amount of time. It is even different in this case cause in frozen human food we have preservatives and additives that help offset what gets lost in freezing... Frozen Thawed Rats get nothing! The point is made... That if nothing is lost in Freezing food... Then why do the frozen food companies go through the extensive time and effort required to add these preservatives to our frozen foods?

Read this article from VMSHerp "http://www.vmsherp.com/LCLivevsFrozen.htm"... It has a lot of good info that should be considered. Most I have paraphrased above.

And once again... No hostility intended. I love these educated discussions.

[SoCaliSon]

One more note i forgot to add...

If you ask me... The way they do it in nature is what we should offer them in captivity... Regardless of what we can stomach watching... Or what the snake will eat( I could get my snake to try to eat a water baloon if I wanted to, doesn't mean that he should eat it.) We as humans know that wild animals can be broke a trained to endure almost any situation we choose to keep them in... For the sake of the animals we should keep them as close to their nature as possible. I personally don't agree with keeping an animal captive... and then altering their lifestyle even more for our own convenice in keeping them.

[SoCaliSon]

I'm not bashing your live feedings. I'm just defending my stance on the subject like I should. That's what makes a good debate!

But, SoCaliSon, I'm sure you're a great keeper b/c you obviously care very much for your reptile(s) and that's all it takes to make me happy. We just need every herp as involved as you in the care of their creatures! So, thank you for showing your enthusiasm and concern!

Same here man! I am glad you do state your arguments and reasoning. Keeps fuel on the critical thinking fire. We are all on here because we love our animals and wnat to do what is best for them. In stating what I have learned in my research along with my opinion I am not trying to say that "I am right and you are wrong"... Just pointing out what maybe other people may not have considered yet. Hope Everybody is having a delightfull Monday!

[FireproofGorilla]

Great article SoCal!

I totally agree with the vegetarians dying off. You ever seen a vegetarian? They're all gaunt and yellow (Ron White reference, just a joke).

It's not that I can't stomach watching my snake pwn a mouse. I just don't think it's neccessary thus far. I do agree with you in that there is nothing fresher than live. However, I have no evidence that shows that it's better than f/t.

Of course there are many ways to observe the health of a snake. Shedding, defacating (checking urates for the right consistency and if there's moisture in the stool to observe dehydration), and eating. I would also take the BPs activity level as a BIG determining factor in health. Mila is active when she needs to be (night, dusk, etc.). If that were to change (other than being in shed or digesting), I would become very concerned.

I found that article. I found it very informative. My problem with live was that I was prekilling the food and sometimes my snake wouldn't eat. But, if it's best for her health, I will consider it. But, the article failed to state (in regards to the bacteria and salmonella that could be in f/t) that those bacteria and salmonella are equally as likely to appear in live.

Another reason that I feed f/t is that I know where I'm getting my food source from (I would urge all snake owners to research their food source prior to buying). My f/t ARE freshly frozen. I don't keep any frozen prey item longer than 20 days.

"Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method."

I totally agree with this statement and it's how I've been feeding my f/t the whole time. Do NOT nuke any prey item. I make sure the prey items I've thawed out are body temperature prior to feeding.

I don't know everything. I'm not claiming to. I'm not a veternarian either. From the looks of it, us herps seem to have more knowledge than alot of vets out there! But it's still no substitute. My snake's health is the important part. And I'm glad for your input and that article, SoCal. If Mila's attitude, demeanor, or health changes, I can now include this as a possible cause if she's asymptomatic.

Here's one of my problems with live feedings, I'm sure most of you are smart enough not to leave a live rodent in one of your reptile's cages unattended. But, here's a pic of what could happen (I'm sure alot of people have seen this picture):

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html

(this site is not my only source of information but it is a good one. I'm not that stupid, although my girlfriend might disagree. It all depends on where you get your information.)

I mention high quality frozen rodents for a reason. Years ago, frozen rodents were more difficult to find. I can remember receiving full size trash bags of frozen mice, various sizes, perhaps 1500 in the bag, and it certainly looked less than appetizing. Convincing our snakes to eat such ugly mice was not quite as simple, and the smell was terrible. No one wants their snake eating rotten meat. "Feeder Suppliers" sold mice and rats that had been refrozen two or three times, or rodents that were wet when they were frozen, and the resulting thaw was one gooey, unusable mess.

The store down the street is run by a friend of mine. I know he breeds his own feeders and keeps them VERY healthy. He wouldn't sell me something that's been frozen twice over or frozen for an extended period of time. I give every prey item a good exam before offering it to my snake (everyone should do this). Look at the item before you buy it and after you thaw it. Make sure it's pink, DRY, and warm (not nuked). It should still look like a healthy mouse/rat even though it's dead. You'll know a bad one when you see it. You shouldn't see any dependant lividity (blood pooling in the abdomen or any other portion of the body), this would imply the item was dead for HOURS before it was frozen. The joints should move readily. There shouldn't be any rigamortis in a prey item. Uneaten prey items should be removed immediately and I wouldn't refreeze anything that was allow to get to room temperature more than once. If she doesn't take it at the second offering (which has yet to be an issue), she ain't gettin' it!

On a side note, I'm a Medic Firefighter in VA (if yall couldn't tell by the pic). SoCal, I took a patient in the medic THIS morning for vomiting since 8pm last night. They sedated him and intubated him after I dropped him off. A friend of mine that works at the hospital said he coded (lost pulse and stopped breathing) TWICE after we left. HE WAS A VEGETARIAN! How weird is it that that would happen while we're talking about this?

Yall have a good week!