URGENT Blood Python Very Sick

[55fingers]

I'm kind of still in shock right now so I hope I explain this well enough.

I had recently posted a thread on my new blood python (who has mites) urinating every other day which concerned me.

About an hour ago we saw she peed again and went to go clean her enclosure. We opened the lid and found her with her mouth open.

The past hour she's been in a cycle of being completely lethargic, not able to hold her head up, muscles loose, to suddenly thrashing around with her mouth wide open, all her muscles twitching, while straining her vent immensely, then repeat. She was only able to get a little bit of brown liquid out. When I feel her I can feel a couple tiny hard things (probably urates) and a good amount of liquid in her butt in the path to the vent. She also looked like she was having a hard time breathing, hissing loudly and may have had some fluid near her nose, I couldn't tell. I have a video if anyone requires it but it's quite distressing.

We are in the Midwest, in the middle of a snow storm and all the emergency vets are closed. It's -20 outside and even with the heating on, it's not easy to keep the room warm. So we have just decided to clean her enclosure, make her comfortable in there and leave her alone. I do not expect her to be with us in the morning.

My only ideas are:

1. Someone suggested she may have drank soapy water during her soaks. Would that cause something like this?

2. Could she have been constipated or eggbound? She's a retired breeder but hasn't had a clutch for several years.

3. Internal parasite? She already had mites when we got her, could an internal parasite be causing her system to flush out as much as it was?

If there's the off chance that she's here in the morning, she will be going to an emergency vet, though I don't know they would even take reptiles.

Just looking for any theories so that when this catches up with me tomorrow, I might be able to rationalize it easier.

Thanks for the help y'all.

[Bogertophis]

Sad & sorry to hear about your snake- & your morning-

1. I think that was me...if a snake drinks soapy water, they'll have gastrointestinal upset, the level of which depends on the amount & type of soap ingested. For future reference, when soaking a snake with mites, you only need a drop or two of mild soap (like Ivory) in the water-the water should not be sudsy- you do not need bubbles. Even a tiny amount of soap mixed in the water will be enough to break the surface tension of the water so the mites cannot swim or float- instead, they sink & drown. It's important to make sure a snake doesn't ingest any soapy water...however, this sounds like way more than a soapy water ingestion problem, though I could be wrong.

2. & 3. Maybe- some of what you're describing implies there's a possible blockage (urate stones or tumor or ?), but without seeing the snake & many things are possible here- not the least of which this is a mature snake that came from "not the best source" or she wouldn't have mites, & mites are known or thought to spread diseases among snakes.

You didn't say how long you've had her but that she's a recent acquisition? I think you said something about weeks? My point is that she's had mites for a while (they cause dehydration & circulatory collapse-organ failure etc.), & then she has been passing excessive amounts of fluids, which causes dehydration & circulatory collapse. Drinking soapy water could have compounded that- but which came first??? The soapy water soaks, or the excessive excretion of "water"? Poor snake...and no, it doesn't look good. I hope we're both wrong about that.

I wouldn't be getting snakes from the same place ever again if that was me. And I hope your quarantine has been excellent.

If I think of anything else, I'll get back to you. I'm not normally up yet, but my dogs needed out.

[Malum Argenteum]

Linking your previous thread here just for the convenience of readers who want to refer to it:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ythons-urinate

I don't know what responses drinking soapy water would cause, but I would expect them to be entirely digestive issues. I've only had one eggbound snake, and it did not present at all like what you're describing. I don't think that internal parasites would cause such a distinct shift in behavior and appearance.

My suspicion would be a toxic response to the insecticide. Among the symptoms in human toxicity are respiratory symptoms, coordination issues, tremors and convusions (source). Symptoms in snakes are muscle tremors, disorientation and paralysis (source).

Even after a cage cleaning, permethrin is stable on surfaces, so the repeated applications may have simply built up. Soap and water don't remove it well; it is used on human clothing for insecticidal purposes and lasts through a handful of machine washings. It might be that the repeat applications weren't fully dried when the snake was returned to its cage (I would expect there was a bit of a logistical issue with having to have the snake out of its enclosure during the cleaning process and things might have been a little rushed, which is understandable). You say "opened the lid" which suggests a top opening enclosure; it may be that limited ventilation plays some sort of role as well.

Given the repeated soaks and excessive urination, it may be that the snake simply took on way too much water and is hyponatremic. Soap might break down the skin's resistance to water (which is probably pretty low in short tailed pythons to start with -- I would expect they have a high rate of evaporative water loss). This is just speculation, though, and a vet would have a good idea as to whether overhydration is a factor based on symptoms.

[Bogertophis]

I'd forgotten about the use of "PAM" (not quite awake yet, ha)- you're probably right, Malum. More than one snake-owner has messed up when using that stuff. Personally, I've never used it.

IF PAM is the culprit, do your best to help the snake flush it out of their body, get vet help if & when you can, & hope for the best. Rest & supportive care.

If you can't get on the road today or the vet is closed due to bad weather, try for a phone consultation- ask what you should do if it's PAM toxicity. Better the vet sees the snake in person though, for more accurate diagnosis.

If you need a herp vet: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

You mentioned going to the emergency vet- I'd call first to see if they are experienced with snakes.

(As far as internal parasites or egg-binding, they could always be contributing factors in a snake that came with mites, & some internal parasites don't inhabit the GI tract- I was actually thinking about snakes that get lungworms, which could cause thrashing around, etc.)

I hope she makes it...

[Malum Argenteum]

Personally, I've never used it.

I've used it only once for snake mites (on a blood python, incidentally), and use it a lot around the farm -- insect control on livestock quarters (and directly on livestock when it is really needed -- fly strike is nasty), treating clothing for ticks, spraying the siding of the house against wasps and carpenter bees. Since I use a fair amount of it, I've done some research into how to use it safely, and making sure it is dry on a surface is really important, since then it stays there and works its magic. Based on what I read in journal articles, it is very safe and effective for snake use when used judiciously.

[Bogertophis]

I've used it only once for snake mites (on a blood python, incidentally), and use it a lot around the farm -- insect control on livestock quarters (and directly on livestock when it is really needed -- fly strike is nasty), treating clothing for ticks, spraying the siding of the house against wasps and carpenter bees. Since I use a fair amount of it, I've done some research into how to use it safely, and making sure it is dry on a surface is really important, since then it stays there and works its magic. Based on what I read in journal articles, it is very safe and effective for snake use when used judiciously.

BTW, I know that many have used PAM safely on snakes- & that it's the ones with bad outcomes for whatever reason that we tend to hear about here & in other forums.

It wasn't even an option back when I had (all of) 2 snakes that came with mites, & since then, I've managed to avoid them totally. What do you think of using NEXGARD instead, as was recently reported to be effective, safe & easier?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...s-looking-good


https://parasitesandvectors.biomedce...71-022-05611-1

[Malum Argenteum]

What do you think of using NEXGARD instead, as was recently reported to be effective, safe & easier?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...s-looking-good


https://parasitesandvectors.biomedce...71-022-05611-1

Effective and safe are what we're looking for. NEXGARD has the potential for some pretty serious adverse affects in dogs, though. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/vms3.285 .

The linked study on snakes is admittedly promising, but doesn't have the sample size needed to show side effects especially if such effects are taxon-specific (as in, for example, the sensitivity of Drymarchon and at least some Lampropeltis to metronidazole).

NEXGARD isn't exactly easier. It requires a vet rx, so there's time and hassle and expense that isn't involved in treating with PAM (or generic equivalent). It also wouldn't be very practical in a situation where mites may or may not have taken hold in a collection -- so, is most appropriate either for those folks who only have one snake, or who have a rigorous QT procedure in place and know that the mites are limited to one animal (though these latter type of keepers probably have PAM on hand and know how to use it).

Having a vet helping with medical treatments is a very good thing in a lot of cases, though, so that's a plus. The vast amount of uncertainty of a lot of keepers dealing with mites for the first time is problematic, and funneling these sorts of cases to a vet would be best for the animal and probably the keeper too.

Personally I feel more comfortable with a environmental treatment over a systemic if each are effective. Used properly, a snake really doesn't get exposed to the active ingredient in permethrin sprays. But it seems it would be a lot harder to misuse a one-dose oral miticide. Seems there are pros and cons to each.

[Malum Argenteum]

55fingers, I really hope things are looking up for you and your snake. Please keep us posted on how she's doing!

[55fingers]

Thank you everyone for your kind words and advice. She unfortunately was gone by Saturday morning. I've kind of been in shock and unable to muster up enough to type this post until now.

We have her body refrigerated at the moment in the hopes to get an autopsy done. Of course, with the weekend, snow storm, and a federal holiday, we're having to wait until tomorrow (Tuesday) for anywhere to be open.

I have concerns that it could be something contagious and would feel better if we're able to rule that out for the sake of our other snakes. And if I can learn whether or not a mistake was made I'd feel more confident so I won't repeat it.

We had only had her in our care for about a month, and in that time she revealed that she had mites as well as developed symptoms (constant urination) within 2 weeks. She was also very vocal as soon as we brought her home, but we had heard that bloods are louder in general so it didn't concern me. Now I'm starting to wonder if she had respiratory issues, she did a lot of huffing and her breathing was usually very audible.

In your experiences, is it a waste of money to get an autopsy done for a snake? I've been quoted anywhere from $100 - $300. I reached out to the breeder we got her from, asking if they would help cover some of the cost for the sake of their collection as well and in an effort to maintain civility. However it doesn't look like they are wanting to work on a solution with this, and they are quite defensive. I was already unhappy having been sold a snake with mites. Every time we went to pick up supplies etc from them they were always very specific about meeting us outside and not wanting us in the house as well (which I understand for quarantine procedures, but it was a little suspicious that we weren't allowed to see how she was kept at all). I most certainly won't be buying from them again, and if the autopsy was to come back showing it was something she had prior to our care, I'll likely be posting a beware about them.

[55fingers]

Also forgot to address the theories about PAM and the soaks. I am not against the idea that a mistake could have been made somehow with these, which is why I'd appreciate an autopsy as well. But we only added 2-3 drops of Dawn at a time (for a huge snake in a good amount of water) and made sure it wasn't sudsy, just enough to break the surface tension. We also made sure the PAM was entirely dry and fumes dissipated before adding substrate (paper towels), water bowl then the snake. We also used a heat gun to dry the enclosure quicker as well as heat the enclosure to 150f to kill mite eggs. Then let the enclosure cool down to appropriate temps before adding her back in. I've never had an issue with PAM before but after this.. I'll likely switch to something else. We were going to try using frontline but didn't get the chance.