Heating pad unstuck

[nvmycj]

Silicone pad sounds great- there's more than one good way to do things. It's like in medicine: First, do no harm. Also: Thermostats are only good when correctly installed. Ask if not sure.

Yes- you just figured it out. Sooner or later, snakes burrow- substrate gets pushed away, & that hot floor underneath can "burn" the snake. Again, no (!) surface temperature is safe for a snake to lay on when it's over 90*. And you're asking for trouble with 3-4" of substrate, because that is actually "insulation"- it's going to prevent most of the heat from rising into the snake's home where it's needed, and might even overheat the UTH. No wonder it came unstuck...

Keep the substrate to no more than 1" deep over UTH- many say .5"- but it depends on the kind of substrate- some is more dense than other kinds. BPs are not big at burrowing either, so it's not like yours will be suffering from the lack of burrowing material- but if you want, you could always give him a deep container-full to burrow in on the "cool" side of his home instead to "play in"- just make sure it's never over the UTH. See? 3-4" of substrate is a waste of resources anyway.

One more thing that comes up now & then- remember you're roughly 98.6*, so that 90* surface won't feel hot to you, it will feel cool. Same goes for water (people sometimes try to soak or wash their snakes in water that feels nice & warm to them, only it feels HOT to their poor pet. So get & use an accurate thermometer ("temp. gun"). Many snakes have been known to sustain "burn" injuries after laying on surfaces that were too warm to be safe for them, & for unknown reasons they don't get off in time- burns are painful, may become infected & ooze, take a long time to heal, & may be fatal depending on the severity. A snake may first show some redness (pinkness) on their ventral scales, so watch for that. (Which is confusing because some snakes also do that pre-shed. You need to be a "detective" when you keep snakes- )

And btw, you seem to be catching on quite fast- so don't feel bad for getting some things wrong...feel GREAT for asking & learning better ways to do this stuff.

Holy crap!! Who knew I was using too much substrate?!?!? I've read that a good layer of substrate helps retain humidity levels and gives BP's a place to burrow. Which mine has done a time or two. I'm using coconut husks as a substrate so 0.5-1" of substrate over the UTH would basically be one or two pieces deep of the husks. Could I taper the substrate into and out of the warm hide? Would that be ok? Can I add some sphagnum moss in his warm hide to that shallow of a substrate?

OK,...so now for thermostat placement,...and for clarification...

My temp probe and hygrometer sensor is a combo unit sitting ON TOP of his substrate in both his warm and cool hides? Is that correct placement?

I really do appreciate your patience with all my questions. You've been very kind in taking the time to answer all of them.

[Malum Argenteum]

A hygrometer placed against damp substrate will fail soon. The sensors don't tolerate standing water on them, even condensation. If you measure RH, measuring the RH in the enclosure itself seems typical. Measuring the general enclosure temp with that meter is useful too.

When you get your thermostat, the thermostat probe gets fastened (taped) between the heat pad and the bottom of the enclosure on the outside of the enclosure. Then use an IR temp gun to determine what probe temp corresponds to what hide temp -- so if you're targeting 85F as a hide temp, and that temp is reached when the thermostat probe is at 90F, then set the thermostat to 90F and do periodic spot checks with the IR gun to make sure the hide temp is appropriate.

On burrowing -- I'm going off script, since I only keep one BP. But my understanding is that BPs do live in burrows in the wild, but they don't dig those burrows (they're sure not adapted to do so). That implies that they should be given burrow-like hides (I'm a big user of cork rounds wherever possible -- many herps seem to really get a lot of use out of them) but not necessarily substrate that encourages burrowing. Giving them enough substrate so they can use it to choose to be a little more moist (by scootching down into damp substrate) is a good idea though, as is offering a wide range of moisture and temperature gradients throughout the enclosure.

[nvmycj]

I'm reconsidering my statement above. I suppose with no thermostat and way too much insulating substrate, all bets are off. With a temp of 89F on top of 4" of coco chip and all that above an air gap, the temps underneath must have been quite high. I'm glad nothing worse happened.

How large was the original enclosure, and what size is the heating pad? I'm curious in part to understand what sort of situation could cause the damage you mention, and also to figure out if maybe a new and larger heat pad would be a good idea (I like to shoot for about a third of the enclosure warm, ideally tapering off to the cool side). After running it at such high temps, it may be a good idea anyway.

Hi Malum Argenteum!

I just noticed your post. Sorry for the delayed reply.

I've attached pics of the initial tank he was in and where the UTH was located. The UTH did cover 1/3 of the 10x20 tank. So that's a plus. And you can see the substrate depth. Also attached is the warped pad itself.

His new tank is a 20g long. It's a 30x12. Would a new heating pad sized 8x12 work for the new tank?

Reading the posts from you and Bogertophis, I too, am VERY thankful nothing detrimental has happened to my little guy!

[nvmycj]

A hygrometer placed against damp substrate will fail soon. The sensors don't tolerate standing water on them, even condensation. If you measure RH, measuring the RH in the enclosure itself seems typical. Measuring the general enclosure temp with that meter is useful too.

When you get your thermostat, the thermostat probe gets fastened (taped) between the heat pad and the bottom of the enclosure on the outside of the enclosure. Then use an IR temp gun to determine what probe temp corresponds to what hide temp -- so if you're targeting 85F as a hide temp, and that temp is reached when the thermostat probe is at 90F, then set the thermostat to 90F and do periodic spot checks with the IR gun to make sure the hide temp is appropriate.

On burrowing -- I'm going off script, since I only keep one BP. But my understanding is that BPs do live in burrows in the wild, but they don't dig those burrows (they're sure not adapted to do so). That implies that they should be given burrow-like hides (I'm a big user of cork rounds wherever possible -- many herps seem to really get a lot of use out of them) but not necessarily substrate that encourages burrowing. Giving them enough substrate so they can use it to choose to be a little more moist (by scootching down into damp substrate) is a good idea though, as is offering a wide range of moisture and temperature gradients throughout the enclosure.

OMG! I've been doing the temp prob wrong too!!!

Looks like I'm heading to store to get a SEPARATE hygrometer and a SEPARATE thermometer prob and thermostat!!! Do you suggest a specific brand?

Once I get the heat pad and warm hide temp regulated, will I need a tank thermometer to monitor the tanks temp?

[nvmycj]

For snakes like BPs or large boas that need more warmth, I agree, I'd prefer to heat about a third of the floor too. And also depending on room or home temperatures & local climate. As long as they have at least 1/3 of the floor that's off the heat just for safety.

@ nvmycj- You see, we (Malum Argenteum & I) both have lots of years experience keeping many snakes, & often it still helps to discuss the best methods & answers to problems, because each situation is a little different. Plus it's harder online, since we're not seeing what might otherwise be obvious in person. I'm sure glad nothing worse happened too- safety is the most important thing. Keeping reptiles isn't as simple or obvious as some pet stores make it sound- I think they don't want to scare off sales by making it sound too complex.

Ideally, it's better to completely set-up & test run an enclosure for a week or more with no occupants, & adjust the temperatures when you won't be affecting a resident. Since yours just ate, it's super important that he not be too cool (for digestion) now.

Absolutely love hearing multiple opinion, and each setup and situation is different!

Aaaaaaaaand,....I love the recommendation of having an empty enclosure setup before your moves in. Testing the waters as they say.

These mistakes will NOT be made again.

[nvmycj]

ok guys,...since we talked about heating, temp control, feeding, and substrate, we might as well continue on with lighting.

Here's his new set up. There's a 75w bulb above his warm hide, and next to it is a UVB light. On a night day cycle. The warm hide gets to 86-87 degrees with the light alone.

Here's what I'm thinking....

Turn on light and UVB at 7:00am.
Turn on UTH at 6:00pm to allow for hide to begin warming up.
Turn off light and UVB at 7:00pm.
Turn off UTH at 5:00am.

My rationale...turning the light off with cool off his hide. He needs some warmth at night, right? I've read they can tolerate night temps drops of 70degrees, mimicking their tropical day/night temperature swings. I'd leave his warm side at 78-80 degrees at night.

[BeansTheDerp]

You are right with the burrowing! They do bask, burrow, climb, and hide. It's more common for a ball python to take the burrow of another animal instead of making their own but my bp has actually dug in his substrate all on his own before.

[Bogertophis]

ok guys,...since we talked about heating, temp control, feeding, and substrate, we might as well continue on with lighting.

Here's his new set up. There's a 75w bulb above his warm hide, and next to it is a UVB light. On a night day cycle. The warm hide gets to 86-87 degrees with the light alone.

Here's what I'm thinking....

Turn on light and UVB at 7:00am.
Turn on UTH at 6:00pm to allow for hide to begin warming up.
Turn off light and UVB at 7:00pm.
Turn off UTH at 5:00am.

My rationale...turning the light off with cool off his hide. He needs some warmth at night, right? I've read they can tolerate night temps drops of 70degrees, mimicking their tropical day/night temperature swings. I'd leave his warm side at 78-80 degrees at night.

Do you see your snake coming out under the light you're providing? I'm guessing not...? They're not into bright lights at all- ambient room light is enough for them, so overhead light fixtures are best used for providing warmth without much or any light (though there is debate about the need for UVB issue). I prefer to use either red or black "old fashioned" incandescent bulbs for warmth, or CHE's that put out heat only. If you use a CHE, make SURE your light fixture can handle the heat & wattage, some cannot (you want fixtures with metal holding the bulb, not plastic inside so they don't melt), & also, I use lamp dimmers & virtually never crank up the outputs- it's just supplemental warmth & you'll have to see how much you need (I use UTH in all my tanks). You can also use a thermostat & timers to regulate these if you want, but I'd NEVER turn off the UTH. Also, 70* at night for a BP will probably make him stop eating- I wouldn't go below 75* on the cool side @ night. BPs can be fussy....

Again, never* turn off the UTH... Use overhead (dim) lights or CHE for added warmth- not so much for "light". I'm glad you're asking & you're obviously trying hard. BPs are complicated. *One reason we advise setting up a snake's home a week+ ahead of time is that UTH takes time (!) to warm all the furnishings & surrounding surfaces, even underneath it. The heat gradually keeps rising initially for days so you need to check & use a t-stat to make sure it doesn't get too warm. Regulate the UTH, but don't turn it off...the snake may get too cool while digesting & then upchuck his meal.

Is that top made of some sort of screen? Can't tell from this angle, just assuming... So you'll lose most all the needed humidity unless you cover most of it (with something that NO air goes thru, leaving a few small air gaps for fresh air circulation. (Ie. a gap on the cool side for inflow, & a gap on the warm side for outflow- warm air rises, so fresh air is naturally brought it the other side.) You can use various things to cover a screen top- you want something light weight (foil or plastic work, but aren't pretty), some have plexi cut to fit (but it's expensive) -super thin plywood will work, as will other options. Even coated* cardboard (*so it doesn't absorb humidity).

[Malum Argenteum]

+1 on everything Bogertophis said up there, including not being entirely gung ho on to offering UVB (especially unmetered UVB, I'll add) to a species that doesn't require it.

OMG! I've been doing the temp prob wrong too!!!

I'd look at all this more as improving your practices rather than 'doing it wrong'. We can all improve, all the time.

Looks like I'm heading to store to get a SEPARATE hygrometer and a SEPARATE thermometer prob and thermostat!!! Do you suggest a specific brand?

I've had good luck with such products from Acu-Rite. I've not had long (or even medium) term success with pet-marketed electronic accessories (Zoo Med and the like).

Once I get the heat pad and warm hide temp regulated, will I need a tank thermometer to monitor the tanks temp?

Not necessarily, but it wouldn't hurt. The most useful readings will come from an IR temp gun (they should make them with a belt holster so they're always at hand -- only half joking here). I have a thermometer in some enclosures just as a sanity check, but most I don't. Keeping an eye on the snake's behavior can tell a lot too -- if they're avoiding the warm side, or always hanging on it, that's a clue.

mimicking their tropical day/night temperature swings.

Without knowing quite a bit about how wild BPs regulate their temp during nocturnal activity, I'd be hesitant to give much of a night temp drop, especially beyond the background temp drop the enclosure will experience simply from being located in a human house. I poked around Google Scholar and couldn't find any good info on BPs nocturnal activity as related to temps. It may well be (like leopard geckos, who shouldn't be provided much of a night temp drop, if any, contrary to some claims) that they stay burrowed up on cooler nights, or they may limit the duration of their excursions so to go warm up often. Continuing to offer a typical temp gradient no matter what time it is will allow the snake to regulate its own temp as needed. Unless the keeper has a real solid understanding of why they're forcing something (like cooler temps) on an animal, it might usefully be assumed that the animal knows best how to take care of itself and will do so if given the options.

[Bogertophis]

@nvmycj:
And a +1 from me on Malum Argenteum's above post too. (We're almost to the point of finishing each other's sentences... )

You see now just how much there is to know & understand about snake-keeping- they're not like keeping other kinds of pets. It's very normal for new keepers to need some help getting things right, especially with all the confusing & wrong information there is floating around. This forum is just here to help people figure things out so animals are safe & healthy, & their owners aren't tearing their hair out...lol. Plus, we all learn more with the exchange of ideas, because some things are always changing, with new products invented.