!LIVE FEEDING! Viewer Discretion ~ juvenile bp catching prey comp.

[anson]

https://youtube.com/shorts/jhDMuQ_vE..._eSyyO_mWgTAlZ

(didn’t include any extensive constriction/suffering of rodents )

just shortened clips of the striking and initial squeeze positioning… made a compilation of these into a youtube short.

i think it’s pretty cool stuff but it may not be enjoyable for those who don’t like to watch the brutal aspects of nature.

[Bogertophis]

Well, just so you know- we seldom post clips of live feeding here because on the whole we promote feeding pre-killed (p/k) prey, either fresh-killed (f/k) or more commonly, frozen-thawed (f/t).

Feeding live rodents is mostly avoidable- while many snakes need a few "first" meals that are live, most can be switched to more humane methods whereby rodents are first euthanized with accepted methods to minimize their suffering. Also, in some places (such as the U.K.- where some of our members are) it's actually illegal to feed live prey (with few exceptions) so your video may well be a big turn-off to some of our members.

The other thing is that sooner or later, by feeding adult rodents (either mice or rats), your snake will get injured by them. Snakes are good at their jobs, but even they can have an off-day, their grip isn't perfect, & that rodent can turn just enough to bite & injure your snake- even though they ultimately lose the battle. It might seem to be a minor bite, but all such bites can cause not only pain & suffering for your snake, but may result in an infection that requires veterinary care- possibly even surgical repair. Bites are best avoided, because the antibiotics your snake may need to fight an infection are not without side effects (they're hard on your snake's body).

Bites can leave ugly battle scars on your snake to remind you, & in rare occasions, your snake may even die from an infection, or they can lose an eye (which will impact their skill at constricting). Another thing that's been known to happen following a bite is that your snake may fear live rodents & refuse to eat. Then what? Overall, it's just better all around to teach your snake to eat pre-killed rodents. Over the years of keeping countless snakes, I can say that it's much easier to keep a snake healthy, than it is to get them healthy again after any sort of infection or illness. And vet bills can hurt your budget too.

So I hope you reconsider feeding live rodents, & if you need some pointers to get your snake on p/k rodents, we'll be happy to help you. Wild snakes don't have any choice but to make their own kills, & their lifespan is seldom anything like our captive pets enjoy. The pets we care about can have a longer, healthier life, & we can be more humane for the rodents too, by feeding only dead prey. Oh, by the way- your snake can also get intestinal parasites- aka "worms"- by eating live prey too. Another good reason to feed p/k, eh?

[anson]

i’m sorry to share if this isn’t something that is allowed. i did read the forums rules before posting, with the consideration in mind that it is a controversial area amongst the vast community of reptile pet owners and i wanted to make sure not to violate the rules. i noted that they forbade commenting/posting anything in ways that could be perceived as derogatory, sexual, hostile, and inappropriate on a personal level. i did not read anything forbidding nor discouraging anyone sharing their live feeding experiences. i was also considerate enough to clearly state in title that the content what i was posting and that it was not expected or intended for everyone to click on and watch with their condoning enjoyment.

i appreciate you taking the time to reply with the well intended, descriptive, informative response. Even moreso, I appreciate that your delivery of your oppositional stance, even though only through text entry, was easy for me to read and perceive as one without any anger, aggression, blame, or any other less-than-friendly emotion that often comes from those who speak out against the other side of a controversial subject. I respect your opinion and appreciate your concern.

when i got the snake from petsmart, i was aided through the adoption and equipping process by an employee who had led me to believe that she was the reptiles’ and fish dept only or primary caretaker. i forgot to ask how long the snake was at the store in its quite small section of a stacked, multi-terrarium aisle endcap. i wish i would have. however i did ask what it has been getting fed and how often, and she informed me that she fed it a frozen and thawed pinky every saturday and advised me to do the same for a couple to few more weeks before it was going to most likely be ready for “fuzzies.”

when i asked how to offer the frozen and thawed mice to the snake, she had responded with a very vague and seemingly generic and improvised answer that i believe to have been an uneducated and unsure explanation of a technique that she had not been successful in administering. she said to thaw them completely and place them in a small and clean tray or bowl that would keep the substrate off them, then set them in the tank at dusk and then offer privacy and try to not disturb or interfere with it for the remainder of the night… just leave it to be found/eaten when the snake decided to leave his hide and seek food during the night. she said nothing specific about keeping it dry, warming it up to realistic endothermic temperature, using tongs, making it move as if living, nor how long it should be left in the tank uneaten, or if it could be refrozen and thawed for another attempt.

trying and failing to get the snake to eat them, then reading and trying all the tips and tricks i read about here on bp.net without success, in addition to the petsmart employee’s failure to provide any and all of that specific information i have read since then (much of which came from experienced bp owners within these forums in response to others expressing feeding troubles) was a revelation, in hindsight, that the snake was not eating pinkies every saturday and may have not eaten anything for several weeks for all i knew. without knowing how long it had been fasting, and discouraged from my own failure to successfully feed it for over 5 weeks of having it under my care, i was willing to go against all the advice that discouraged live feeding,

because i had tried “playing” with the tongs, warming and temp scanning and serving at healthy rodent body tempterature, tried poking a little hole to cause bleeding and add blood scent, tried a different brand name of f/t pinkies, tried with no tongs or playing motion and left it in a few different sizes/shapes/materials of dishes/bowls/paper plates, tried no dish or bowl with setting it on a flat stone in his terrarium, tried all different times of day/night, tried a lot strategies and failed.

i had not tried a live mouse yet, and i knew it was supposed to be eating a small meal weekly at its stage of youth, so i was concerned it would starve before i ever even picked it up to hold it( i had read it was advised that snakes with new homes/owners would be stressed and should not be handled until they showed enough comfort to have eaten their first meal in the new home and allowed them a digestion period of at least 24-48 hours).

[Bogertophis]

A few things, anson:

It's not so much that it's not expressly allowed, but besides being "bad advice" (which we do reserve the right to remove), the other problem is that you may not be aware of it, but there are extreme & very vocal animal rights groups that would LOVE to make our pets totally illegal, and by posting live feeding videos, you're giving them ammunition to promote their views to lawmakers, very few if any of which understand or like snakes (& any reptiles) to begin with. So let's not help them, okay? Never forget many people HATE snakes & would love to make them disappear.

...i appreciate you taking the time to reply with the well intended, descriptive, informative response. Even more so, I appreciate that your delivery of your oppositional stance, even though only through text entry, was easy for me to read and perceive as one without any anger, aggression, blame, or any other less-than-friendly emotion that often comes from those who speak out against the other side of a controversial subject. I respect your opinion and appreciate your concern....

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a moderator here. And besides, this is not one of those forums that tolerates verbal combat. Most of us are adults- & even those who are not- we expect everyone to communicate views with peaceful respect. Most of us have experienced other forums that don't moderate conversations, & the end result is that in anger, no one learns anything & good members are turned off. This forum is designed to be family friendly- we want kids to be able to learn here too, without having their parents worry about what they're exposed to. But even our adult members appreciate the tone here- you'd be surprised how many times I've been thanked privately for keeping the peace here- making this a pleasant & "safe" forum to share tips & relevant ideas.

While we don't allow "bad advice" to stand as posted here- your post is merely sharing, not so much promoting, what we consider a bad practice. You're also a new owner, so I decided it works pretty well as a reminder to readers. Like the old saying: "I'm not completely useless, I can always serve as a bad example." I appreciate that you warned viewers that the content was graphic.

And speaking of making posts that are easy to read, in the future please break up those long "wall of text" posts so that more people do read them. I'm going to edit your post now just to add some spacing. Whew, that's better...now we can get to our suggestions.

As you've already noticed, pet stores are there to sell pets & supplies- it's unfortunate that they cannot be relied upon for best care advice, but that's reality. Some mean well*, but they still don't have the experience & most cannot afford to pay more to hire help for their experience. (*But shockingly, some -the less reputable stores- just figure that when things go wrong, you'll come back & buy another pet, so they'll make more money by selling more pets & stuff to go with them. ) So the best way is doing your own research first, before you shop & fall for that adorable _______(whatever pet). You want to avoid impulse buys- but most of us have "been there".

We're here to help other keepers have the best experience with their pets- we make no money off of helping- we're here because we enjoy our animals, & we enjoy sharing what works for us, & learning about what works for others. Glad to have you join us.

[dakski]

OP, if interested in trying F/T again, I can definitely share some tips. Just let me know.

Additionally, what size is your BP and what size prey are you offering?

Finally, I appreciate your willingness to learn and not get defensive. As Bogertophis said, we are here to help and have no motivation other than helping the hobby and the people and animals on this forum.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Bogertophis]

....i did read the forums rules before posting, with the consideration in mind that it is a controversial area amongst the vast community of reptile pet owners and i wanted to make sure not to violate the rules....

BTW, anson- This ^ ^ ^ also impressed me about you. I can't remember anyone making a similar post before.

[Homebody]

...trying and failing to get the snake to eat them, then reading and trying all the tips and tricks i read about here on bp.net without success, in addition to the petsmart employee’s failure to provide any and all of that specific information i have read since then (much of which came from experienced bp owners within these forums in response to others expressing feeding troubles) was a revelation, in hindsight, that the snake was not eating pinkies every saturday and may have not eaten anything for several weeks for all i knew. without knowing how long it had been fasting, and discouraged from my own failure to successfully feed it for over 5 weeks of having it under my care, i was willing to go against all the advice that discouraged live feeding,...

I sympathize with your concern for your new snake and your frustration at being unable to properly feed it. Under those circumstances you may very well have done the right thing by feeding live. It beats not feeding at all. But, I think we all agree that feeding f/t is better in the long run and, since your bp is now obviously eating, I'd encourage your to give feeding f/t another try.

One thing that struck me in the description above is that you seem to have tried many different techniques in a short time period. If so, you may be trying to feed too often. Attempting to feed too often can stress your snake and make it less likely to feed. So, if your snake refuses, it's a good idea to wait a week before you try again.

[anson]

Additionally, what size is your BP and what size prey are you offering?

at the time of adoption, i would guess that it was about 18” long. i was trying to feed it f/t pinkies, then f/t fuzzies that were one size up from pinkies.

i don’t have a good scale to weigh it, so i’m clueless of the weight, but it’s now somewhere between 26” and 30” long (never lets me straighten it out completely for precise measurement without bending somewhere else).

this brings about a good question i’ve been meaning to ask… Is my 40 gallon 36”x18”x18” terrarium sufficient or should i be upgrading by now or at a particular size?

[Homebody]

Is my 40 gallon 36”x18”x18” terrarium sufficient or should i be upgrading by now or at a particular size?

Your 40 gallon is sufficient.

[Bogertophis]

at the time of adoption, i would guess that it was about 18” long. i was trying to feed it f/t pinkies, then f/t fuzzies that were one size up from pinkies.

i don’t have a good scale to weigh it, so i’m clueless of the weight, but it’s now somewhere between 26” and 30” long (never lets me straighten it out completely for precise measurement without bending somewhere else).

this brings about a good question i’ve been meaning to ask… Is my 40 gallon 36”x18”x18” terrarium sufficient or should i be upgrading by now or at a particular size?

Pinkies (assuming mouse pinkies, not rat-) are not big enough to feed even a new hatchling BP, fyi. They start off on food the size of fuzzies or hoppers (mice) or baby rats of the comparable size.

Don't worry about exact length, & fyi, you can hurt your snake by forcibly straightening its body out to measure. So again, not to worry.

Yes, 40 gal. tank is plenty big enough.