Will my python ever recover?

[nikkubus]

Also, change (improvement) can be very slow in snakes- like "watching paint dry".

It's really important to remember just how much slower their metabolisms are from ours and how slowly they recover compared to us. Even in humans it can take months for bacteria to fully recover after heavy antibiotic usage, and food goes fully through our systems in a day or two. I'd say it's worth another shot, especially if nothing else is working.

[leosantare]

It is very sad to see her in this condition. It is even more sad to think this might be caused from the antibiotics. She was given (10) injectable doses of Ceftazidime over the course of one month and (4) injectable doses of Ceftiofur of the course of one month.

Again I took her to the vet because of blood coming from the mouth, suspected stomotis. She has not bled from the mouth since. Does anyone think this is viral or cancer? At this point, is it definitely from the antibiotics? When I first took her to the vet her body condition and weight was very good. Since then, it continues to worsen.

Assuming it is the antibiotics, can she ever recover from them. As of now, she is getting worse, not better.

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[Bogertophis]

It is very sad to see her in this condition. It is even more sad to think this might be caused from the antibiotics. She was given (10) injectable doses of Ceftazidime over the course of one month and (4) injectable doses of Ceftiofur of the course of one month.

Again I took her to the vet because of blood coming from the mouth, suspected stomotis. She has not bled from the mouth since. Does anyone think this is viral or cancer? At this point, is it definitely from the antibiotics? When I first took her to the vet her body condition and weight was very good. Since then, it continues to worsen.

Assuming it is the antibiotics, can she ever recover from them. As of now, she is getting worse, not better.

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That's my best & logical guess from the info you've shared- that it's from the antibiotics. Please remember that we're only seeing her online, & it's not our place to diagnose yours or any snake- we're not vets, & while we need vets, remember that their perspective is different from ours. Over the years, there have been times that I've known a snake had a problem but the vet couldn't see it- they only see our animals for a relatively short time, & their approach is to use things like meds or surgery for whatever issue they're focused on; they're often not that good at general husbandry, nor do they see the subtle changes that we do if we're observant owners. Remember that.

From the tests you've had done, & her background, it doesn't seem likely to be viral or cancer, (& as I recall, your vets have told you they see nothing wrong with her now?) so from the info given, antibiotics jump out at me as the MOST likely cause. I wouldn't keep running tests right now- I think she needs time & TLC to fully recover from those antibiotics. Yes, they helped her, but they also probably did some harm. That's common in the medical world- have you ever listened to tv commercials for a new (human) drug? All the side-effects they list are often shocking, but it's a trade off, it's a gamble that the "good outweighs the bad". You can cure one thing but hurt another, such as liver & kidney function, & that goes for all living things- humans & pets alike.

So I'd be very patient- give this beautiful girl all the time she needs- she seems to have damage to her gut from the symptoms you describe. I would guess that she needs probiotics in every meal, plenty of good food, rest & time- not the stress of more vet visits or tests, IMO. She needs your support & patience. Will she be the same as before? I don't know- all you can do is go forward & help her to be as healthy as she can be. She deserves that.

And if anyone has a better hunch, let's hear it?

[leosantare]

She hasn't been to the vet in months and don't plan or taking her back. Nor do plan on testing her for anything else.

The last vet appointment was to get a second opinion. Nothing was done except a quick visual inspection. The vet told me she is underweight which I already knew. He recommended to increase the temperature a bit. I never changed her temps and never went back to that vet.

Months ago, I told my vet what you said about the antibiotics, that they can kill the good bacteria in the gut. Her response was no they don't because they were injectable antibiotics.

It's hard to say, if her body condition started going down hill before the antibiotics or not. Although, its been months since the last antibiotics and her body condition slowly continues to get worse. I will start giving her the Nutribac again. Not only do I put the stuff in the rat's mouth, I also put a bunch all over the rat after I soak the rat. I hate the stuff though since it becomes so sticky and makes a mess. The next day my snake has all the residue and rat fur stuck on her and in the cage.

I only mentioned cancer because apparently it can be the cause of stomotis.


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[Bogertophis]

...Months ago, I told my vet what you said about the antibiotics, that they can kill the good bacteria in the gut. Her response was no they don't because they were injectable antibiotics.

It's hard to say, if her body condition started going down hill before the antibiotics or not. Although, its been months since the last antibiotics and her body condition slowly continues to get worse. I will start giving her the Nutribac again. Not only do I put the stuff in the rat's mouth, I also put a bunch all over the rat after I soak the rat. I hate the stuff though since it becomes so sticky and makes a mess. The next day my snake has all the residue and rat fur stuck on her and in the cage.

I only mentioned cancer because apparently it can be the cause of stomotis.


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While I would agree that it seems likely for injectable antibiotics to be "better" for the stomach than those dosed orally, there is still some debate about this to the best of my knowledge. Remember that medicine (human or animal) is a "practice"- that more is learned all the time, & thinking changes. When you consider how stoic snakes are, & how slowly their body recovers, that should tell you that current thinking might be wrong, or that these drugs may not be as free of side-effects as is currently assumed. Just saying. Snakes are not ideal subjects for experiments either. Vets do the best they can with what they know & have, & they continue to learn during their career.

Supplements like Nutribac are best put in the prey's oral cavity (mouth) or injected into the body of the prey (if soluble). You might try opening a small slit on the underside to put the powder inside the body of the prey, but I agree...I'm not a fan of dusting it on the outside of the prey- it's mostly wasted there, & messy, & might make some snakes refuse to eat because their food smells wrong.

I think that if your snake had cancer that caused the stomatitis, the stomatitis would still be an issue -it would have recurred- but you said it's been cured. So it's not likely cancer.

When you want a snake to gain weight, you might also try making some changes to what you're feeding. Feeding younger rats, & like 2 at a time- might help. I've always raised my own rodents, & when I've had snakes that needed some "TLC" for whatever reason*, they might also be fed multiple fuzzy mice or rat "crawlers" (eyes closed), depending on the size of the snake- what is essentially "babyfood"-with a higher fat content (more calories). You don't want to overdue this, but just a suggestion to try- see if it makes a difference. The largest rats are the oldest & not necessarily the best nutrition. You might also look into other prey -young rabbits, maybe? -if your snake will accept them. But try feeding younger prey & multiples as needed to get the right amount of food, & monitor the snake's weight so you don't go too far (don't make her overweight).

*For example ("TLC")- I once accepted an older & way under-fed rosy boa that was no longer wanted. They claimed she wasn't eating & sometimes barfed up her food- but they were keeping her in a small cage with 2 other rosy boas (all female), & temperatures were way too cool for them to digest. She was very stressed, it was obvious. For those who don't know, adult female rosy boas are only 3-4' long, with a narrow gape. So I tested her appetite with fuzzy mice- & you could almost see the smile on her face as she gulped them down until I said "that's enough for now" & let her rest & digest. After a few weeks of that, I gradually increased the size of her prey- she clearly digested just fine, without the stress & temperatures that were finally warm enough. She recovered very well- in fact so well that she became an excellent breeder for 5 years, & lived 11 years total with me before passing of actual old age. But at first, those fuzzies were just what she needed to digest easily, and put weight on her quickly- that's all I'm getting at. Don't be afraid to think outside the box when you feed this snake, if you want her to gain some weight.

[leosantare]

Okay, I will just put as much as I can in the rat's mouth. I agree with your point about the possible cancer.

I will just keep doing what I'm doing. It's good she keeps eating and pooping but at some point she will die if she keeps losing weight.

It's very upsetting for me to handle her now because of her body condition. I have just about seen enough. That is why I'm going to give her another month. If there isn't any improvement by then, I will relinquish her. Believe me, I do not want to give her away but if it can save her life I will.

I will continue feeding her (2) medium rats every 10 days. Then, I will weigh her in early September. If she is under 7kg, I will give her to Ari who plans to be here in mid September. I'm almost positive she is already under 7kg.

Without sounding to complicated, what do you think the antibiotics actually did or is doing? It's like she isn't getting any calories from her food which sounds impossible. As if her metabolism is insanely fast. Do you think she can recover from this, is it possible she doesn't?

You would think, I would think feeding her larger meals or more frequently would make her gain weight. Well, I tried this for a bit on more than one occasion and she didn't gain weight. Instead she became impacted. Therefore, I can't do it. Any ideas how I can make her gain weight without impacting her? This sounds crazy, how about a small rat every 3 day or something? Either way, I'm paying very close attention to her pooping making sure she is not becoming impacted.





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[Bogertophis]

Okay, I will just put as much as I can in the rat's mouth. I agree with your point about the possible cancer.

I will just keep doing what I'm doing. It's good she keeps eating and pooping but at some point she will die if she keeps losing weight.

It's very upsetting for me to handle her now because of her body condition. I have just about seen enough. That is why I'm going to give her another month. If there isn't any improvement by then, I will relinquish her. Believe me, I do not want to give her away but if it can save her life I will.

I will continue feeding her (2) medium rats every 10 days. Then, I will weigh her in early September. If she is under 7kg, I will give her to Ari who plans to be here in mid September. I'm almost positive she is already under 7kg.

Without sounding to complicated, what do you think the antibiotics actually did or is doing? It's like she isn't getting any calories from her food which sounds impossible. As if her metabolism is insanely fast. Do you think she can recover from this, is it possible she doesn't?

You would think, I would think feeding her larger meals or more frequently would make her gain weight. Well, I tried this for a bit on more than one occasion and she didn't gain weight. Instead she became impacted. Therefore, I can't do it. Any ideas how I can make her gain weight without impacting her? This sounds crazy, how about a small rat every 3 day or something? Either way, I'm paying very close attention to her pooping making sure she is not becoming impacted.

If you feed 2 smaller rats, you'll also have more mouths to fill with probiotic. And as I mentioned, I'd add some plump fuzzy/crawler rats to her diet for extra calories. Just don't feed much over the same (combined) WEIGHT of the prey as you've been feeding.

IF her problem is poor digestion (absorption), then you don't want to feed too much, OR too often ("every 3 days?" ). ALL snakes need TIME to digest properly, & small rats do not digest in 3 days. They just don't. And you don't need a snake that's regurgitating meals, that's for sure. You might get away with one small rat per week, instead of 2 every 2 weeks, but I'm not sure I see any benefit of doing that.

And you've had her stool tested thoroughly for parasites, right? That's another common way that snakes eat well but keep losing weight.

As far as this snake becoming impacted, that's likely from feeding the large rats- as their fur is quite thick & plentiful. And maybe also from dehydration &/or insufficient exercise. Again, small to medium rats are more digestible- and better quality, IMO.

Sorry, but I cannot see into the future- snakes are a "work in progress" & if you're still struggling with this, perhaps rehoming her to a more experienced keeper (with this species) would be best for her survival & the stress & frustration you're obviously feeling. That's for you to decide.

[leosantare]

I got the rats from cold blooded today, (10) large and (10) medium. Pretty much all the medium rats are 100g and all the large rats are 180g. I'm going to give her one of each, 280g total about every 9 days for now.

I'm getting them ready now. Her body condition looks very bad. Yet she is moving around like she is starving. She knows when im getting it ready and will strike before I can even get the door open all the way.

I just don't get it, doesn't make any sense to me. Thanks for all the help



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[leosantare]

Yes, I've tested her fecal multiple times for parasites.

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[Bogertophis]

Yes, I've tested her fecal multiple times for parasites.

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I was sure that you had- I just didn't have time to re-read the whole thread & didn't remember every detail. And a stool check is a no-brainer for most any vet.