Your opinions are greatly appreciated...

[Eric Alan]

I'm not running a "breeder mill" or tub farm for my "pets"...
I spend a lil more on a comfortable place that resembles their natural habitat...in case you forgot, these are snakes, not your grandpas old playboy collection. I'm a naturalist, not a capitalist, theres no monetary interest I'm looking to gain.

I would advise against being so quick to judge someone based solely upon the material their animal's enclosures are made of. It's a HUGE leap from rack system to "breeder mill" and to equate the two is offensive and a huge disservice to the hobby we all share.

The reason racks/tubs are as popular as they are is because they are specifically designed to meet the requirements for a proper ball python enclosure - 1) be secure, 2) be moisture resistant, and 3) be able to retain both heat and humidity. For the keeper, meeting these needs means that they can enjoy their snake without having to worry about the heat, humidity, or an escapee. For the snake, meeting these needs results in proper sheds, proper digestion, better eating, and a less stressed and overall happy/healthy snake. As you're well aware, these basic needs can also be met in a display enclosure (glass tank, vivarium, etc) with the proper equipment and kudos to you for doing so. But why judge someone else who's also meeting the needs of their animals?

Along those same lines, there's far more to a natural habitat than simply using natural materials. The habitat we are aiming to replicate is the inside of an underground burrow or termite mound. Those spaces have specific environments that ball pythons have adapted to, which properly maintained racks/tubs replicate quite well. It is not a selfish capitalist choice to use a rack/tub system - far from it actually.

Ultimately, though, it shouldn't matter what a person's methods or motivations are as long as the animals in their care are healthy and thriving.

...that way you'll quit assuming I'm some kid who just got home from the local petsmart!!!

There we go again judging a person based on an arbitrary choice - where they purchased their animal. Nevermind the fact that that kid just made the fantastic choice to join the hobby which we all share and love.

[Zincubus]

I would advise against being so quick to judge someone based solely upon the material their animal's enclosures are made of. It's a HUGE leap from rack system to "breeder mill" and to equate the two is offensive and a huge disservice to the hobby we all share.

The reason racks/tubs are as popular as they are is because they are specifically designed to meet the requirements for a proper ball python enclosure - 1) be secure, 2) be moisture resistant, and 3) be able to retain both heat and humidity. For the keeper, meeting these needs means that they can enjoy their snake without having to worry about the heat, humidity, or an escapee. For the snake, meeting these needs results in proper sheds, proper digestion, better eating, and a less stressed and overall happy/healthy snake. As you're well aware, these basic needs can also be met in a display enclosure (glass tank, vivarium, etc) with the proper equipment and kudos to you for doing so. But why judge someone else who's also meeting the needs of their animals?

Along those same lines, there's far more to a natural habitat than simply using natural materials. The habitat we are aiming to replicate is the inside of an underground burrow or termite mound. Those spaces have specific environments that ball pythons have adapted to, which properly maintained racks/tubs replicate quite well. It is not a selfish capitalist choice to use a rack/tub system - far from it actually.

Ultimately, though, it shouldn't matter what a person's methods or motivations are as long as the animals in their care are healthy and thriving.

There we go again judging a person based on an arbitrary choice - where they purchased their animal. Nevermind the fact that that kid just made the fantastic choice to join the hobby which we all share and love.

You make an awful lot of sense as usual EA and we're all so different.

I see no point in buy an expensive , gorgeous looking creature and shoving it out of sight but I don't breed or keep hundreds of Royals so my twenty odd snakes are better suited to my display vivs and visa-versa .

That said I can't see why more people don't put branches in their vivs or their rubs as most snakes especially Royals / Balls will make great use of them.


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[Mangiapane85]

You make an awful lot of sense as usual EA and we're all so different.

I see no point in buy an expensive , gorgeous looking creature and shoving it out of sight but I don't breed or keep hundreds of Royals so my twenty odd snakes are better suited to my display vivs and visa-versa .

That said I can't see why more people don't put branches in their vivs or their rubs as most snakes especially Royals / Balls will make great use of them.


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Different strokes for different folks. BPs don't need branches or any climbing objects in order to live a thriving, healthy life. They just don't.

And to the OP, there's no mistaking the shine of that snake. No filter that can do that. ... you physically SAW this snake shed with your own eyes??..

And btw, it looks like a normal. Not a firefly whatsoever.


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[Ratikal]

Actually, this is prior to his 2nd shed and the sheen is vegetable oil which is a vet referred method to check for mites...with the oil rub, mites will fall off onto your hands if present...
2nd...Definitely not a normal! Came from a fire female x lesser pastel male cross. I saw both parents on site with the whole clutch. Pixelation in the side markers, flames, coloration all present except the headstamp which is not an absolute of "all fires"!
Thank you for the two cents...you really should've kept it in your pocket.

[PokeyTheNinja]

Wow, tough crowd and presenter. I'd say a low quality fire or an interesting normal. Fire X Lesser Pastel can create the following:

12.5 %	1/8 Normal
12.5 %	1/8 Pastel
12.5 %	1/8 Lesser
12.5 %	1/8 Fire
12.5 %	1/8 Lesser Pastel
12.5 %	1/8 Fire Lesser
12.5 %	1/8 Firefly
12.5 %	1/8 Firefly Lesser

[Ratikal]

The last phrase was taken out of context seeing that I watch most the mods on this forum jump on people. Expecially when the first thing asked is where did you get it and 75% of the answers are big box stores. Thats usually when the insults and degrading begin. Just like the above replies to my original post..
Next, this is going to sting a bit, most breeders are mills and farms. I'll explain...when you breed a species purely for cosmetics and profit by flooding the market with your animals, it makes you a "mill". I'll elaborate, as a top AKC and CKC Champion field breeder, we are required to have our animals DNA markered, tested, certified...what accredited organizations require anything similar in breeding and selling reptiles, snakes, etc...while I can appreciate your passion for this hobby, I don't see many breeders case studying these animals to purify the complications or genetic defects of the species, i.e. spider wobble, woma issues, champagne etc...
Having a Bachelors in the Science of Nursing (BSN) and also being a Merchant Marine has furthered my education and experience abroad. We could sit all day and compare against each other accomplishments but I assure you, my animals are cared for better than most. I quietly sat aside while others judged me, my care for my animals, and my knowledge of the subject. While I simply asked opinions of the male pictured above, thats as far as it needed to go. My Petsmart comment was in reference of several replies assuming I was going to fail, a newbie or uneducated. I'll admit that husbandry has come along way in the 10 yrs since I owned my last snakes, I assure you I am continuing to learn about these beautiful creatures. Thank you and Happy New Year...

[Ratikal]

There were 3 normals
2 pastels
2 fire males
2 lesser pastels
1 firefly
1 firefly lesser
I had both males but one didn't make it due to a "kink" and blockage of its abdominal area 1/3rd dorsal above the vent. The breeder kept both fireflys.
I bought the fires because of the flames and coloring which was distinctly different than the others. The kink male had a bright headstamp. My male has a beautiful pastel yellow around his head and neck which turns to the orange color down his body. Quite beautiful regardless of his genetic line... I'm happy and he is quite healthy and energetic. He actually just came out of a shed last week and is eating like a monster.
I would upload more pics but you can already see what the 1st pic turned into....lol

[Ratikal]

Your advisement should go to your "constituents" for assuming and judging...I merely reacted accordingly to the negativity! If you feel otherwise, I humbly apologize. There are a "hundred ways to skin a snake" per say...I never said your way was wrong or right! Paper towel, tubs or not. I just gave explanation why I was standing to my paper towel opinion. I never said not to use it...just that I don't put paper towel or newspaper in my enclosures. The same reasons hospitals and clinics don't use paper towels to treat patients...

[Eric Alan]

Next, this is going to sting a bit, most breeders are mills and farms. I'll explain...when you breed a species purely for cosmetics and profit by flooding the market with your animals, it makes you a "mill".

Phew. It's a good thing that most people in the hobby (including myself) are neither profitable nor flooding the market with the small number of animals they produce. I'll give you cosmetics, though - I love how beautiful these guys are.

I'll elaborate, as a top AKC and CKC Champion field breeder, we are required to have our animals DNA markered, tested, certified...what accredited organizations require anything similar in breeding and selling reptiles, snakes, etc...while I can appreciate your passion for this hobby, I don't see many breeders case studying these animals to purify the complications or genetic defects of the species, i.e. spider wobble, woma issues, champagne etc...

I can certainly appreciate the dedication it takes to reach the top levels of the dog breeding world. Congrats. Comparing that accomplishment to the ball python hobby, though, is like apples and oranges. For comparison's sake, in 1990 there were basically only three ball python morphs total. Dogs have been domesticated for ~15,000 years and have been kept as pets for ~2000 years (from my quick Google-fu). The amount of money set aside for research in the reptile segment of the pet industry is laughable when compared with the dog segment. Many have tried to separate the Spider complications and have been largely unsuccessful. To add to that, the Spider morph (first produced in 1999) is likely the most out-crossed morph out there for the very reason that you advocated - to "purify the complications". For these reasons, it is generally agreed upon that the wobble is inseparable from the morph itself. That's with only 1% of the time to do this kind of research when compared with how long dogs have been kept as pets (and essentially 0% when compared to how long they've been domesticated). What kind of requirements did the AKC and CKC have at the beginning of the first millennium?

Having a Bachelors in the Science of Nursing (BSN) and also being a Merchant Marine has furthered my education and experience abroad. We could sit all day and compare against each other accomplishments but I assure you, my animals are cared for better than most.

I never once questioned your ability to care for your animals - quite the opposite actually if you read my response. And, for the record, who's comparing? Just in case it's of any importance whatsoever, my B.S. in Microbiology and 20-year-old passport are doing quite well, thank you.

I quietly sat aside while others judged me, my care for my animals, and my knowledge of the subject. While I simply asked opinions of the male pictured above, thats as far as it needed to go. My Petsmart comment was in reference of several replies assuming I was going to fail, a newbie or uneducated. I'll admit that husbandry has come along way in the 10 yrs since I owned my last snakes, I assure you I am continuing to learn about these beautiful creatures. Thank you and Happy New Year...

I agree that many of the comments did go too far. Perhaps if you had mentioned the oil rub right away this thread would have taken a different path (in the 19th post of this thread, you said that the sheen was due only to a bath and some post-processing adjustments; it took until the 44th post to say it's the result of the oil rub). If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, right? Happy New Year to you too!

Your advisement should go to your "constituents" for assuming and judging...I merely reacted accordingly to the negativity! If you feel otherwise, I humbly apologize. There are a "hundred ways to skin a snake" per say...I never said your way was wrong or right! Paper towel, tubs or not. I just gave explanation why I was standing to my paper towel opinion. I never said not to use it...

I've been just as quick to call out both sides when I find it necessary to do so. The paper towel comment I made was directed at another member entirely. I only quoted your reply in this thread when you made it personal by implying that those who keep their animals in tubs don't care about their well-being. That's just not true at all.

just that I don't put paper towel or newspaper in my enclosures. The same reasons hospitals and clinics don't use paper towels to treat patients...

Forgive my confusion, but you lost me with that statement. What do you mean by this?

Last, but not least, I hope you don't think I'm singling you out for any vindictive, personal, or selfish reasons. I love a good thought-provoking conversation and this one is hopefully doing that for all involved - as long as everyone can keep an open mind throughout.

[Mangiapane85]

Wow... it's really hard not to argue with this guy..

Dude, if you're coating your snakes in vegetable oil, you got a serious problem.

Good luck with your spectacular college degrees.


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