Planning on first pairing: Opinions on conformation?

[artgecko]

Hi guys,
I am planning my first pairings and want your input on conformation. Although I am working with petstore stock for now, I'd like to work towards good conformation in my rats, but I don't have any rat breeding experience, so I'd like your input... I have tried to read the standards and look at the illustrations on different rat clubs, but am not sure which qualities should be of most importance (size, body condition, head conformation, or eye size).

My current group is 3 female blue dumbos (all sisters), one male blue dumbo (their brother), and two unrelated males, a black hooded and an agouti. I tried to get pics of them, but the girls did not want to cooperate and all I got of the boys were their heads. I will list the positives or negatives that I know about each and welcome your feedback on which doe / buck would be the best pairing.The girls are now about 11 months old, and the 2 unrelated boys are about 13 months. So far, none have shown any health issues (except some sneezing from the agouti whom I am not planning on breeding) and there are no signs of tumors, etc. at this point.

Blossom

She probably has the best body condition of the three girls. Not tiny, but not overweight
Bubbles

The chunkiest of the girls, but not what I'd call obese
Buttercup

The best temperament of the females, outgoing and social. VERY active, and also much smaller than the other two girls. I would call her "dainty". Sorry for the blurry pic. She would not hold still.
Howard (black hooded) and Leonard (agouti)

Although it is hard to tell in the pic, Howard has much better ears / eyes than Leonard. Leonard is much larger (close to 1/3 again as big) as the other two males. Howard is smaller for a male but I think he has the best muscle tone. Leonard seems to have a "pointy" nose and does not have the best temperament.
Mojo

Best personality of the boys, very laid back and friendly. Is quite overweight and his eye placement seems odd to me.

What I am thinking:
Breed 2 litters using 2 of the 3 females. If it is unsafe to breed a smaller female, then I will not use buttercup. All 3 seem to have ear and head issues and none of them has especially good eye size (that I can tell).
Use either Howard for both litters or Howard for one and Mojo for the other (if him being overweight is not an issue). Howard has better eyes than any of the dumbos (and head structure I think) so I think he would improve those traits in the females.
Reserve back the best looking babies conformation wise and breed them to *hopefully* end up with better eye size and head conformation in the second generation. I'm assuming that I would probably end up with black standard eared babies in the first generation (if howard is used), then when crossed back, I may get blue dumbos along with black dumbos / standards in the second generation.

Feel free to give me any input you have and thank you for your time / help!

[artgecko]

I forgot to mention that I have contacted someone that breeds rats and in about 3 months, I should be getting some new rats from her.. She is expecting Himalayan, possibly Siamese, and blues (all both dumbo and standard, and some rexes), so I am hoping to get a blue rex dumbo from her along with 2-3 rex Siamese or Himalayan dumbos. I would like to work with both lines (blues and Siamese / Himalayan, in rex and dumbo) and am hoping that the blue dumbo that I get from her (if there is one in the litter) will work well with my lines and possibly improve them. I do not know if she shows, but she does take all her rats / litters to the vet and socializes them, so I'm hopeful that her animals will be better quality.. I found her on a feeder / breeder group in my state, so I do not know if she breeds feeders as well as pets or just pets.

[sorraia]

I would need more photos from different angles to give a better analysis, but from what I can see in these photos:

Long head, ears look like they might be a touch pointed, but looks like she has nice eyes (dumbo tend to have smaller eyes). .Body shape doesn't look too bad, but back looks to stop a little short with slightly squared rear. Nice thickness to tail. Can't tell for sure in this picture, but looks like her shoulders might be a little narrow too.

Can't tell much about her body, but her nose looks a little long. Ears are nice and round, but a little small. Eyes look good.

Again can't tell much about body. Looks like shoulders might be a little narrow. Nose isn't as long as the others, but head shape looks weird (banana nose, common in dumbo). Eyes a little small, ears a little small and look a little pointed (elf ears), but nicely placed.

Top rat has a nice shape, good shape and length, ears a little small. Bottom rat has a long nose, small ears. Both look to have good ear placement.

Nose looks a little long, ears wrinkled, eyes look good.

[artgecko]

Thanks! the black hooded male has the best conformation I think. I will try to get better pics of the females... Let's just say they weren't cooperative with my attempts today. They all have faults, but I can't really get good stock here, so i'll have to make due with what I have. I'm leaning towards bubbles (the female in the second pic) and buttercup (the last female). I'll attempt to get pics from the side of both for you to see.

Thank you for your input!

[Lore]

For starters: I don't breed, show or keep dumbo rats, just top ears, so my ear advice may be wrong because I do not have the eye for it.

Note on breeding for type (via Carol Lawton of AFRMA [ http://www.afrma.org/brdstf_sqbuttsrats.htm ]):
"Let’s start with some basics so you’ll understand my philosophy on breeding. The core group of breeders, those you see winning at shows most often, believes in breeding “from the inside out.” We don’t all say it that way, but it all comes down to the same thing. Here are the basics in order of priority:
1. Excellent health and temperament are rarely discussed because those are a given. If you want to see either Karen or I get upset, just mention that the mother of your litter is a little sneezy or that the father can’t live with other males but that it’s okay because he’s great with people. We don’t even TRY to breed these things out . . . we simply don’t breed them.
2. Bone structure. This is the hardest part of the rat to change through breeding and can take many generations before you see improvement. If a rat has a long narrow head, a flat rump, a square butt, a short or thin tail, or a short body, the base of these problems is often bad bone structure. While poor bone structure isn’t always easy to see on babies, it’s usually obvious at a young enough age that you know that the rat should be pet-placed rather than kept for breeding (#1 reason for showing your kittens!!!).
3. Soft tissue. This is a little easier to change and can be accomplished in a few generations if you are very persistent. Soft tissue is anything between the rat’s bones and skin—it includes eyes, ears, tail (to a degree), muscle mass, facial structure (to a degree). Much of a rat’s head structure is based on how the soft tissue (muscle and fat) lays over the bone, it can make them cheeky, heavy in the neck, give them a pinched muzzle.
4. Coat and color. This can be changed in a single generation and should be one of your lowest concerns when you begin breeding."


Blossom: Nose is long, eyes could be larger but they are decent, needs an arched loin (is too tubular) [inferring from build] thin in the shoulders, pear shaped, pinched hips and slightly flat butt. I can't see her rear well enough to judge if she has a square tail or butt.
Bubbles: Ears are well shaped and well placed but a bit small. Her eyes appear to be nice and large from this picture and her muzzle looks to be adequate. Cannot judge much else.
Buttercup: Nice breadth of muzzle but muzzle needs to be shorter. Ears appear to be creased (common in dumbos) but are placed well.
Howard: Appears to have a nice head shape overall but could use larger ears and eyes as well as a shorter snout.
Leonard: Due to his personality being lackluster, I would remove him from breeding plans. In the picture he appears to have eyes that could be a bit larger, ears that could be a bit larger but are placed well, a pinched muzzle and a long snout.
Mojo: Nose appears long but he has nice width through the muzzle though it may be slightly pinched. Ear placement looks a bit high and the ears are creased.


"I forgot to mention that I have contacted someone that breeds rats and in about 3 months, I should be getting some new rats from her.. She is expecting Himalayan, possibly Siamese, and blues (all both dumbo and standard, and some rexes), so I am hoping to get a blue rex dumbo from her along with 2-3 rex Siamese or Himalayan dumbos. I would like to work with both lines (blues and Siamese / Himalayan, in rex and dumbo) and am hoping that the blue dumbo that I get from her (if there is one in the litter) will work well with my lines and possibly improve them. I do not know if she shows, but she does take all her rats / litters to the vet and socializes them, so I'm hopeful that her animals will be better quality.. I found her on a feeder / breeder group in my state, so I do not know if she breeds feeders as well as pets or just pets."


CongRATulations on your new arrivals and for finding a quality feeder breeder in your state! I'd highly recommend getting two babies of opposite genders from both of the litters you are choosing from, make sure at least one of each pair excels in type in some way your current stock does not. If the breeder does not provide pedigree information, at least to the Grandparents, I would do direct brother-sister crosses to bring out their recessives so you do not add any potential genetic issues into your existing stock that can be carried unexpressed through generations. Try to breed your Siamese and Himalayan lines when it is cooler so their points will be richer and have more depth of color. I'm discontinuing my Himi because (though their personalities are absolutely fantastic) I can't seem to get decent arch of loin (they are too tubular) and they seem to be far more vulnerable to respiratory illness than my other rats. They are a beautiful variety to work with. I'd recommend keeping Himi, Siamese and nice PEW (you can source these from laboratory stock, if you wish) because they compliment one another. [Explanation here: http://www.rmca.org/Articles/himalayan.htm ]

[artgecko]

Thank you for the huge amount of information Lore. I wish that the pictures I provided were better, but the females refused to hold still. I believe I will be focusing only on breeding two of the females: buttercup and bubbles. Blossom, as you said, has a very long and pointy nose. She is also the most "skittish" of the females, so temperament wise, not very good. OF the males, Howard is my best bet, I think. He was not socialized as a baby, so is not super friendly, but will allow me to pet him and will come up to the cage door. His head is also shorter than the females and his eyes appear larger than they do in the picture. Leonard has bad temperament, so is out (although I think his body type is the best) and Mojo, although excelling in temperament, has weird eyes... They seem too highly placed and aren't exactly symmetrical (the eye on the left side of his head is slightly higher than the other eye). He also has a sloped "bananna" nose and is quite fat.

I will be looking especially for larger eyes, and shorter / broader non-sloped noses from the stock the other breeder has. She has probably just done the pairing, so I will not know if she will have pups from the pairing for a while yet. She told me that she apprenticed under a breeder who had been breeding for many years, so I'm hopeful that her stock originates in show lines.

[Rhasputin]

The best advice you can get for breeding to standards, is to start with good rats. Rats and mice have been bred to standard for over 300 years to get to where they are today (mice have had muce more work done). Basically, there is no way to start with pet store rats, and get anywhere near standards. You can breed them for fun for now, but your real goal should be to get rid of the pet store ones and get the best already conformed ones you can find, and improve on them slowly.

And something that a lot of people do, that doesn't make sense, is to breed a good show rat, to a pet store rat to 'improve' the rats. Which isn't good... Instead of breeding 2 good rats together, and getting more good rats, you breed a good rat and a bad rat together, and get 'ok' babies. Which doesn't really get the project anywhere.

This is coming from a prior show breeder!

[artgecko]

Thanks for the advice. I'm not necessarily looking to show, just want to improve what I have so that their appearance, temperament, and health is good. Proper head structure is a main goal for me because I think a lot of breathing problems may be due to it and possibly vision issues with small eyes.

I have no show breeders anywhere near me and the only one who has a site in my state makes buyers sign a no breeding contract. Obvisouly she would never sell to me knowing that I want to breed AND have snakes lol. The breeder who I have been in contact with should have better rats than I do, but I don't know if they are "show stock".

[Rhasputin]

No breeding contracts kind of piss me off when it comes to rodents, lol. Like, seriously. If you don't want us breeding them, get them fixed.

[artgecko]

Yeah.. I know. I don't agree with them, but couldn't lie to her and sign the contract, then breed. I'd just not feel good about it. Its too bad all the show breeders are so uptight about that..You would think they would want to grow their hobby. Imagine if BP breeders made you sign a no breeding contract when buying from them. :p

I am hoping to work with what I have, add some new genes from this breeder, and work towards producing solid, healthy rats with good temperaments and better looking features. When I'm sure of temperament and health, I will try to sell some as pets as well. (I don't know if there's demand for pet rats here though). For the first couple generations, I will plan on using those I'm not keeping for breeders as feeders.