OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[MrLang]

Tell your friends they don't know what they're talking about.

Crot -
You vastly overestimate the brain function of these animals. The lowest stress housing is the one where the conditions they seek in the wild are met. Humidity, heat gradient, water, food, shelter. That's it buddy. They don't want bright light, they don't want you staring at them, they don't want you misting them all the time. They don't want to choose between an optimal hide for their security and having the right temperature. They don't want a scenic view of the natural wood branch you have sitting in air space in their enclosure that they have no intention to ever need or 'want.' Not only do they not want those things, but you add stress by allowing some of those things. Stress is what drives them to seek proper humidity, heat, food, water, shelter. Stress can also lead to feeding strikes, sickness, and death.

When you try to provide a 'natural' living space for a pet, you're not doing them a favor. Release your snakes in the wild if that's what you're going for. One of the main responsibilities of pet ownership includes providing safer, lower stress conditions than the animal would face in its natural environment. I'm not saying that's impossible to do with a natural viv, I'm saying it makes no difference if the basic list of needs / 'wants' above is catered to.

[Izzys Keeper]

First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

I think there has to be a happy medium.
bare with me on this one

Bp owners usually say that snakes dont need big spaces because they spend x% of their time in a ball hiding in a hole in the wild.
Iva also seen bp owners say that an active snake is a stressed or hungry snake.

Could it be that snakes in the wild are eating way way less than in captivity and are sitting motionless for long periods if time not by preferance but by pure necessity? To conserve energy. Is it possible that an active snake can be in fact quite healthy beacause it has determined that it has the energy to move about?

With that being said maybe a middleground of a larger-than-tub closer be more adequate?

Let me say that i am a tub/rack user but i feel that we as owners tend to justify the easier tub setups for our own reasons. Not trying to say tubs are bad for the snakes well being in any way but to say that the tubs are the best possible option is a bit selfish on our part. Its just unreasonable to spend the so much extra time/effort/money to construct that perfect medium between comfort/size/environment that is found in the natural habitat( let alone numerous ones for more snakes).

But its human nature. You cant blame us for failing to set aside our personal preferences in order to provide such a small percentage more of comfortability for the snakes. The fact that we own these snakes in captivity at all shows how unconsciously selfish we are in the first place

[Exotic Ectotherms]

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

While I do agree with some of your points, I have to say that I can't agree that keeping snakes in a rack shows a lack of passion. I think passion for snakekeeping is better measured by how vigilant a person maintains their animals habitats (whatever they may be), and how well they care for the overall health and needs for their animals. People who have no passion for their animals tend to slack or neglect their animals' basic needs.

Personally, some of my snakes are in beautiful, elaborate, PVC display enclosures and some of them are in a rack. I provide my animals with the environment that they prefer and will thrive in. For example, my pastel BP is in a 4 foot display enclosure. Approximately 1 year ago, I attempted to switch him to a rack. He went off feed for a while, so I put him back in the display enclosure. He resumed eating like clockwork. On the flipside, I have several BP's who I attempted to put in display enclosures who refuse to eat in anything other than their tub. Every animal is different and has different preferences and a passionate keeper takes that into account and provides what is best for their animal.

BTW...your rattlesnake enclosure is beautiful!!!

[Freakie_frog]

As a breeder I provide my snakes the things they need to live well, heat, safety, food, water, vet care as needed, ect ect. When it comes the which is better for my animals my only gauge is my understand and years of experience when it comes to Python regius behaviours. I can tell you that there hasn't been anything in my almost decade of keeping experience that has lead me to believe that things like fake rocks, or natural substrate play any roll in the quality of life for the animals. I can only speak for Ball Pythons so keep that in mind. I believe that in the wild studies have shown that Python regius seeks out the same enviromental factors I provide in a rack system. Now can they be offered in a natural enclosure as well but to say that one out weighs the other is impossiable..

I'll leave the natural enclosure to my customers who spend their hard earned money on great looking snakes and rightly so want to show off their pride and joys in the most visually pleasing way possiable..

[MrLang]

I can only speak for Ball Pythons so keep that in mind. I believe that in the wild studies have shown that Python regius seeks out the same enviromental factors I provide in a rack system. Now can they be offered in a natural enclosure as well but to say that one out weighs the other is impossiable..

Well said.

[AdamF]

First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

"Passion" (you must mean COMpassion) is not a word associated with snake behavior. They do not look at their captive surroundings and say, "wow, this is kind of nice". They require the right husbandry, cleanliness,food and similarity (not exact match) to their environment. Seeing them is more for us, than for them. Arboreal species require something to climb on, rattlers need dry and hot, BPs need humidity warmth, and security. They can certainly survive in larger enclosure with appropriate hides, but it is not required for them to thrive, nor does it have any impact on their breeding/life expectancy.

Its also unfair to compare tubs for venomous at extraction facilities as these are professional handlers of venomous species.

Finally, there is what is easiest (read likely to result in optimal care) for the keeper, and what the goals are. I use newspaper because if is easiest to clean, cheap, and inorganic, therefore less likely to harbor critters. I cannot imagine a major cleaning in a viv full of rattlers!

If the goal is to keep 1 or 2 specimens as simple pet, or nice morph for display, there is no harm in a viv that accomplishes that. If however one wishes to breed and keep mulitple BPs, there is similarly no harm in racks/tubs. If the snakes are eating, shedding, growing and breeding, they are being kept just fine, whether "a studio apartment, or a mansion"...LOL

[rafacacho]

Balls do move a lot...during the night. I´ve had balls in vivariums for years, and they did great. Now I use racks, and I´m ok with it, but I would love to have the money, the place and employees to clean, and keep them all in vivariums.

[snakesRkewl]

Because shoving a nocturnal snake into a glass tank is appropriate...

We are speaking ball pythons here, not boas, carpets, rattlesnakes, etc.
Knowing how to care for a species properly means using whatever is in the best interest of the species.

Tubs > Tanks "for ball pythons"

[rabernet]

It shows no passion at all.

Spend a day with Kevin McCurley at NERD - a full day, then come back and tell us that the man has no passion. I've had the honor of spending almost three weeks with him at his facility (a week on 3 different occassions). Kevin is one of the single most passionate people I've met in this hobby.

I don't get everyone's angst about how someone ELSE chooses to keep their collection. Good on you that you keep yours the way that you do. And good on those who keep in fish tanks and good on those who keep in racks. As long as their animals are healthy and thriving - who CARES?????

[Exotic Ectotherms]

Spend a day with Kevin McCurley at NERD - a full day, then come back and tell us that the man has no passion. I've had the honor of spending almost three weeks with him at his facility (a week on 3 different occassions). Kevin is one of the single most passionate people I've met in this hobby.

I don't get everyone's angst about how someone ELSE chooses to keep their collection. Good on you that you keep yours the way that you do. And good on those who keep in fish tanks and good on those who keep in racks. As long as their animals are healthy and thriving - who CARES?????

Couldn't have said it better myself!!!