Attention breeders in Florida...

[anatess]

I really really don't like the tax reference though, because if someone refused to get the license while the merits behind it are in litigation there'd be nothing to stop the FWC from going into your house, confiscating the whole operation, and euthanizing them before a ruling is made. Sure, you'd probably be able to go after the FWC for damages if the judge agrees with your case later on but it could potentially kill a lot of animals for no real reason and the claimant would basically have to start over from scratch. How many times have we seen local or state agencies walk out of someone's house with the entire operation [cages and all] after interpreting it as illegal? I remember a case from NY where the DEC raided a house and left with both the legally owned and illegally owned animals after accusing the residents of breaking the law.

That's why I mentioned on the bottom - not that we should do this.

In the tax situation - my friend had his checkbook, pen, and bank balance statement infront of the judge. He didn't just "not pay it". He sent a letter to the IRS in writing with certified receipt for information on the amount of money that he owes and the regulation that supports it. He filed his taxes every year - with a taxable income of 0.

There is no way he is getting out of the courtroom in handcuffs unless within the time he was there, the USA gets overpowered by China.

[sgath92]

I was going to add this but it's too late for me to edit my post:

Don't think that these enforcement agencies will wait for legal verification of their policies before doing something with the animals they confiscate.

In PA a couple years ago the state considered rolling out some new regulations for exotic birds and among the species that were mentioned in the discussion was the nanday conure. PA has it's own version of the FWC called the "PA Gaming Commission." PA Gaming had been confiscating & killing nandays because they had mistakenly believed they were illegal [a few states have kill on discovery laws for nandays because agriculture interests feared what might happen if they establish themselves in the wild here]. I kid you not PA Gaming was publicly saying "wait, you mean after all this time these conures were actually legal in this state!?!" They had no idea!!! They were going around treating them as contraband because they thought they were following the law when in truth the law didn't even exist.

[anatess]

*sighs* Yes i know that...
But my interpretation in a official FWC interpretation... and If You wanna fight with bureaucracy is Your choice...

If for example that rule will be stated like :
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II. There are exceptions stated in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC. excluding certain species from having Class III permit for possession or sale.

Nobody will have problem with interpretation...

But tell me something...

Do You really wanna have situation when FWC Officer will knock to your door as you for a license and you will try explain to him glitch in legislation... ???

I can bet my ass on that he will force his interpretation lock you up and confiscate Your whole collection ?? Even if you hire a good lawyer.. and win in court... is really worthy whole stress not even yours but your animals??
And Good lawyer will cost you way more that 50$...

So Yes rewording that part of this particular law is necessary to avoid misinterpretation... but in the mean time I advise you to buy that Permit if you wanna sell you ball python... and then go to war with Florida Congress

Edit: and when You go for that war... think about close minded Florida politicians who wants all exotic animals banned from trade...
And if you dont have lobby similar to USARK backing you.... Ask yourself a Question : Is your war gonna do more good or more harm ??

Aes_Sidhe... this is the mentality of people who grew up under Martial Law. I was one of them. Never again am I going to be TERRORIZED by my own government!

USARK and the like did not fight for a regulation that IS ALREADY IN THE CODE. They are fighting to prevent Congress from passing a specific code!

Florida politicians have no say anymore on regulations already passed and finalized in the FAC. It's done and over with. What I am fighting for - and will always fight for - is to make sure that the people who have the guns that are responsible for enforcing the law do not just take away my property outside of the rule of law! And no, I don't intend to take my own gun and wage war with it!

And no, I am not telling you NOT to pay $50. I'm not telling you that you don't have to get a permit. I am asking you, WHERE IN THE LAW does it say you need to? Show me the regulation.

And that's the same question I just sent to the FWC and my congressman. As of today, no reply yet.

If they do reply with the same explanation you are presenting here (which, I'm starting to suspect will be the case because I can't find any other code in the FAC to support the permit), then I will have to go and submit a request to my congressman to change the wording of that law and see if it passes Congress. If, it happens to make it to the Congress floor and it gets voted down, then you can take it to the judge if you are one of those who paid for a permit to get your money back.

Yes, it sounds like a lot of work right? Well, government is not something you just take for granted or vote on like American Idol. That's how you end up with Ferdinand Marcos for President and 20 years of Martial Law. Or, in America, that's how you end up shouldering the cost of running a government who can't even begin to put a dent on its debt. Coz, the people are too clueless or scared.

And another factoid: I'm not an American Citizen. I can't vote. So, I have no say on what goes into the FAC but I get to abide by it because I'm a Florida resident. So yeah, I'm fighting for the Americans. Yeay me.

[wolfy-hound]

I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.

I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.

For the official record.

In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.

If you choose to go along with someone's "interpetation" of the laws, then so be it. I'll try to pretend to be sympathetic when you're ranting about confiscated animals and getting on the news adding to the media about "irresponsible reptile owners". I'll fail miserably, but I'll try to pretend.

I'm all finished now. My paperwork has been submitted, so if someone else goes off to jail, I've tried to do my part.

[anatess]

I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.

I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.

For the official record.

In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.

If you choose to go along with someone's "interpetation" of the laws, then so be it. I'll try to pretend to be sympathetic when you're ranting about confiscated animals and getting on the news adding to the media about "irresponsible reptile owners". I'll fail miserably, but I'll try to pretend.

I'm all finished now. My paperwork has been submitted, so if someone else goes off to jail, I've tried to do my part.

If you're talking to me, I'm not a breeder so I don't need a permit or anything.

I am a law-conscious non-citizen who has to pay attention to every wording of idiot Florida laws so they can't deport my a$$ for rehoming my ball python to LadyOhh last year without a permit!

So yes, it IS important!

[Mike Cavanaugh]

No wolfy. Ball Pythons are not Class III because they are listed among those species specifically listed as not requiring a permit... it's the very first one on that list. It's letter a.) even.

LOL, I can't believe you are still arguing this!

As resposnsible herp owners we need to follow our local laws to protect the future of the hobby if nothing else. This is not debateable. It is a FACT that you can not sell a ball python in the state of Florida without a license. Don't like the law? Contact your local representatives and tell them you want it changed. Don't try to say it isn't so because the wording is confusing.

Maybe this email chain will make it more clear to you Anatess... Because you live in Jacksonville, this is the same man that will be standing at your door (if your selling ball pythons) to fine you, confiscate animals, and possibly even take you to jail for up to 6 months.

Show Details FROM:Larson, Kevin TO:Mike Cavanaugh Message flagged Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:29 PMMessage bodyGood deal, thanks for the cooperation.

Investigator Kevin Larson
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Law Enforcement
DC 160*54257*110


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cavanaugh [mailto:mccaavv@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:29 PM
To: Larson, Kevin
Subject: Re: Michael Cavanaugh and Ball Pythons

Thank you for that quick reply Kevin.

I have put the application for the license along with my $50 check in the mail. I will notify you via email as soon as my license arrives.

I look forward to seeing you again some time in the future... under better circumstances!

Sincerely,

Mike Cavanaugh




On Jul 16, 2011, at 10:52 AM, "Larson, Kevin" <Kevin.Larson@MyFWC.com> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Yes, they are in the class III category.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Investigator Kevin Larson
> Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
> Division of Law Enforcement
> DC 160*54257*110
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Cavanaugh [mailto:mccaavv@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:09 AM
> To: Larson, Kevin
> Subject: Michael Cavanaugh and Ball Pythons
>
> Kevin,
>
> Thank you for your visit today. I have removed all adds from craigslist as you requested and I also emailed the administrator at BP.net to remove my add from that forum.
>
> I will sell NOTHING until I have my license.
>
> I have one question for you... So are either the ball pythons or the red tail boas considered Class III Reptiles?
>
> Thanks again for your help. I hope to have my application in the mail TODAY.
>
> Mike Cavanaugh
> > 904 318-3333
>

I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.

I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.

For the official record.

In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.

If you choose to go along with someone's "interpetation" of the laws, then so be it. I'll try to pretend to be sympathetic when you're ranting about confiscated animals and getting on the news adding to the media about "irresponsible reptile owners". I'll fail miserably, but I'll try to pretend.

I'm all finished now. My paperwork has been submitted, so if someone else goes off to jail, I've tried to do my part.

Exactly.

[llovelace]

See I knew they were trolling CL.

[tikigator]

I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.

I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.

For the official record.

In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.

If you choose to go along with someone's "interpetation" of the laws, then so be it. I'll try to pretend to be sympathetic when you're ranting about confiscated animals and getting on the news adding to the media about "irresponsible reptile owners". I'll fail miserably, but I'll try to pretend.

I'm all finished now. My paperwork has been submitted, so if someone else goes off to jail, I've tried to do my part.

My paperwork and $50 check went in the mail TODAY!

[Mike Cavanaugh]

See I knew they were trolling CL.

Dont know that for sure, because when he asked how I was selling them i immediately told him through craigslist, bp.net and referrals from people I worked with in the past. I will never lie to an officer. Could he have found me from craigslist? Maybe. But I have an unlisted number, and I have never had an address on any of my adds. I have never even had anyone I have sold to at my house before. Nobody knows where I live. So who knows.

I am glad to hear that you don't need the license to sell rodents.... though I probably would need it for my ASF's... but that is ok because I only sell dead / frozen feeders. You can even sell frozen ASF's in Georgia (live asf's are illegal in Ga)

Annatess, I find it very hard to believe that anyone is going to get deported over selling one snake when you had no idea it was illegal. Especially when the wording of the law can easily be seen as poor.

The message here is simple. Pay the fee. Do what the law requires. This is what being a responsible keeper is all about. I am ashamed that I did not know the law better myself. Now I now it and I will follow it to a T. And I will make sure every reptile person I see knows about it to.

Sure, you could fight it all the way up the local courts and have it determined that you can't be fined for selling your BP. But then what is going to happen? I will tell you... They will come out with a new law the next year that declares you DO specifically have to have a license to sell a BP, and now, to cover the cost of recent litigation, the fee to sell BP's has increased to $5,000 per year.

No Thanks! Follow the rules people (even if they are poorly worded or weak) That is what you agree to do when you live in America. And don't push to change laws without first considering the likely consiquinces!


I am going to politely bow out of this conversation now. Considering the number of Florida members on this forum, I think the mods should seriously consider making this thread a sticky. Anyone in Florida that comes to the site needs to read this thread. We need to follow the rules TOGETHER as a community so we don't hurt the future of our hobby!!!!

[Mike Cavanaugh]

And anatess... you know that I love you!!!!

I am glad I showed you this site because time and time again you have proven to be a valuable member of our community! Just wanted to make sure you know that I still have nothing but love for ya!!! And will happy to work with you in the future once I GET MY LICENSE!!!