2021 0.1 Candoia paulsoni, Solomon Island ground boa, white phase - Inej

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Originally Posted by Starscream

I really, really want to change her substrate to something that's less dusty.

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If you like the idea of coco, consider Reptichip's "Microchip" size. I use it for neonate rainbow boas.

A fine-particle option that is better than coco is Zilla's "Jungle Mix". It is less dusty than coco fiber, and doesn't seem to have the ingestion/impaction risk of coco fiber, and handles moisture better.

Neither of these options have the main advantage of coco fiber, though, which is low price. Functional, cheap -- pick one. :)

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Inej turned two a couple days ago. She's still pretty tiny, but she seems to be a good weight. I've heard slower is better for boas, so hopefully I'm doing this right. She's moving to fuzzies (finally) next feeding. Work's been incredibly hectic, so I haven't had time to handle or really do anything with her beyond feeding and cleaning up after her.

I really, really want to change her substrate to something that's less dusty.

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As of late I've heard of a lot of people using organic topsoil as snake/reptile substrate, or using it in conjunction with something else (ex. cypress mulch, coco coir). One of the vet techs I work with recommended it and I plan on using it in a substrate mix for my ball python's new enclosure (although I'm sure it would be good for other snakes as well). I'd assume since it holds moisture so well without getting super damp and has such a small particle size that the risk of ingestion and inhalation would be minimal.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I usually try to feed my snake on top of his plastic hide so he doesn't swallow any substrate. My vet recommended I do that if I am not comfortable feeding him outside of his enclosure to minimize any risks.

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

As of late I've heard of a lot of people using organic topsoil as snake/reptile substrate, or using it in conjunction with something else (ex. cypress mulch, coco coir). One of the vet techs I work with recommended it and I plan on using it in a substrate mix for my ball python's new enclosure (although I'm sure it would be good for other snakes as well). I'd assume since it holds moisture so well without getting super damp and has such a small particle size that the risk of ingestion and inhalation would be minimal.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I usually try to feed my snake on top of his plastic hide so he doesn't swallow any substrate. My vet recommended I do that if I am not comfortable feeding him outside of his enclosure to minimize any risks.

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As someone that occasionally buys organic topsoil for growing my tomatoes, I have to say I'd never use that for snakes- because there's plenty of "organic" things that might be in there that I'd not want my snakes exposed to. What is intended to use outside in one's garden should not, in my opinion, be assumed to be safe for captive pets. Even with the FOOD we consume, there is a certain percentage of contaminants that are legally "allowed"- can you imagine what & how much is allowed in something we don't eat (like topsoil), & only use in the yard? :confusd: Don't confuse "organic" or "natural" with "safe", especially when it comes to the 24/7 contact by our small pets. As for what others are doing, remember that some people jump off bridges too... ;)

Both you & your pets will live much longer being "risk averse". Even the bags warn you to wear gloves when handling organic garden or topsoil. For one thing, it includes composted material, including manure. (And btw, as a gardener, I'm very much IN FAVOR of composting. Just to be clear.) One quick link-

https://www.nachi.org/compost-pile-h...%20the%20house.

In the wild, snakes certainly come into contact with all that "natural organic" stuff. But they don't literally sit in it all the time, and exposures are gradual so they can build up tolerance, unlike our sheltered pets.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

As someone that occasionally buys organic topsoil for growing my tomatoes, I have to say I'd never use that for snakes- because there's plenty of "organic" things that might be in there that I'd not want my snakes exposed to. What is intended to use outside in one's garden should not, in my opinion, be assumed to be safe for captive pets. Even with the FOOD we consume, there is a certain percentage of contaminants that are legally "allowed"- can you imagine what & how much is allowed in something we don't eat (like topsoil), & only use in the yard? :confusd: Don't confuse "organic" or "natural" with "safe", especially when it comes to the 24/7 contact by our small pets. As for what others are doing, remember that some people jump off bridges too... ;)

Both you & your pets will live much longer being "risk averse". Even the bags warn you to wear gloves when handling organic garden or topsoil. For one thing, it includes composted material, including manure. (And btw, as a gardener, I'm very much IN FAVOR of composting. Just to be clear.) One quick link-

https://www.nachi.org/compost-pile-h...%20the%20house.

In the wild, snakes certainly come into contact with all that "natural organic" stuff. But they don't literally sit in it all the time, and exposures are gradual so they can build up tolerance, unlike our sheltered pets.

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You do make some good and points which are definitely worth considering, however I do feel personally that the benefits outweigh the risk.

I have used "garden quality" organic coco fiber before for reptiles, amphibians, and snakes with no perceived ill affects. I mainly used it for my boyfriend's whites tree frogs, Vietnamese centipede, and his pacman frog. All are eating well and show none of the "crash and dying" characteristics I have seen before in sick/injured amphibians (it can be hard to explain to someone who has not seen it before, and I wish I had a way to describe it).

Obviously, coco fiber isn't topsoil, but it is still an example of something used both for reptiles and for gardening which is safe if used properly.

Another thing I do to minimize the risk for substrates or decor I plan to use for animals is completely dry them out before using, and depending on the specific item I may either boil it, bake it, soak it, or scrub with dish soap, vinegar, and chlorhexidine (virkon is better but very expensive, but I may buy some soon.) For leaves I boil them then bake. For "reptile safe" brand name substrates I let dry then leave it for a day or so before I add it. For none brand name, I may or may not bake it but it will be dried out for a longer period of time. I soak wood for 24 hours in a 1:10 bleach and water mix, then soak it in plain water and rinse well for at least 2-3 more days. If wood is going in an aquarium or with amphibians, I soak in plain water and just bake. For plastic or glass not going into an aquatic environment, I used vinegar, dish soap, and/or chlorhexidine. I use vinegar only if it will be going into an aquarium or water feature. I've found that this eliminates most pathogens. I also would never use store bought compost with an animal unless it had no manure or very little and was properly sanitized by myself.

Realistically, we don't know for a fact that reptile branded substrates haven't had exposure to chemicals as well. Same thing with aquarium vs regular silicone, reptile safe sand vs. play sand, etc. If precautions are taken and proper research is done then one can use top soil relatively safely. Also, my veterinarian has no issues with top soil herself as have none of the other DVMs I have worked with/talked to.

As of right now, I feel comfortable using it as part of a substrate mix for my animals but if at some point something comes out suggesting otherwise and my vets advise it, then I will switch. However, everyone is free to do what they want for their animals as long as it is done with careful consideration and research.

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

I love that wedge head - her face looks more grown-up now too

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

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Please be more careful when offering advice- & be very specific- because many others may read & believe what you say, so it can impact far more than just your own animals. If you wish to revise your post, all you have to do is ask. :cool: If you read the bags of topsoils sold for garden use, it will show in finer print (on the back of the bag) what's in it- many will include some percentage of peat, compost, manure, etc.

You can buy bags of peat moss in garden & feed stores, but that doesn't guarantee there's no contamination that would make it unsafe for housing your pets. That's why it costs more to buy these substrates in pet stores- it's meant for & considered safe for pets. The rest is meant for your yard. There can be a small difference, or a HUGE difference- unfortunately, you probably won't be able to tell by looking at it. But you generally get what you pay for, & in the long run, you won't save money if your precious pet gets sick.

Just being "primarily" peat moss doesn't make it a safe choice for pets. Would you buy & drink milk if the carton said "it's 99% milk? And only 1% is arsenic"...no problem, right? :rolleyes: :D And it's not necessarily a problem with the peat moss, but the processing- just like when you see food labels that warn consumers that nuts or other allergens are also processed in their facility. Remember that by law, some contamination is allowed, & they're not going to be concerned with harm if some buyers choose to use their products (topsoil, peat moss etc) for clearly off-label uses.

And all this is really going off topic for this thread...sorry.

I've personally had bad experiences with using topsoil -- one of the kinds I bought for my ball python's bioactive enclosure ended up having manure in it, and it gave us issues with scale rot. Would like to avoid that if at all possible. I'm not currently wanting to move Inej to bioactive; that'll likely be something I do for her adult enclosure, not now. I think peat moss would also pose a similar problem as the coco coir she's on now, therein it would be very dusty. I do use it for my bioactive mixes, but that's a different story. Thank you for the suggestions.

I did buy a different kind of substrate today, a bit more chippy. I personally don't worry about impaction, as my temperatures seem to be ideal for digestion. I've always fed in the enclosure with no issues and a fair amount of dirt getting on feeders without problem.

I see Bogertophis mentioned this is getting off topic, but the OP just continued the thought and there are still a few recommendations that very much need some terminological correction to avoid confusion and possible harm. So hopefully this is OK (mostly with Starscream, whose fine thread this is :) ).

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

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'Topsoil' is usually the name for field-stripped dirt. It is the top layer of natural soil, typically stripped from former prairies, fields/pastures, and so on. The solids in 'soil' are almost entirely inorganic material -- sand, silt and clay. Products based primarily on peat aren't soil by definition.

'Fill dirt' is subsoil, stones, sand, and clay. A general web search did not find any commercial prebagged availability. It is nothing like topsoil of any type. It is what you find when you dig down below the soil.

Peat-based bagged products on the general (gardening) market are typically called 'potting mix'. They also contain at least some of the following: "worm castings", "forest humus" (possibly municipal leaf compost), composted bark, rice hulls, vermiculite, perlite, organic or inorganic fertilizers, and "wetting agents" (either polyacrylamide or a surfactant). They're designed to have various benefits, none of which are based on herp husbandry concerns.

I've used a fair amount of plain peat moss for amending garden soil, and it is miserable stuff when allowed to dry, much dustier than coco fiber. If kept moist it isn't bad to work with; I much prefer it over coco fiber for a hibernating media for my box turtles, but that's about it.