Indiana Man Killed By 14ft Python

http://www.wishtv.com/global/story.asp?s=5364548

Southern Indiana Man Found Dead after Handling Python

An autopsy found 23-year-old Patrick Von Allmen was in fact squeezed to death by his 14-foot pet Python. Indiana Conservation officers say the autopsy performed Tuesday morning, determined his death was caused by asphyxiation around the neck and chest.

Von Allmen of Lanesville Indiana was found Monday morning lying on the floor of a shed located behind his residence by a family member. Von Allmen had stated to family members that he was going to treat the snake for a medical condition before entering the building. He had been in the shed for about three hours before he was discovered lying unresponsive with the Python free from confinement nearby.

The family had obtained the snake five months ago as a pet. Patrick Von Allmen was, according to family members, well versed with snakes and had 10 to 12 years of experience handling reptiles. The Python was recaptured and retained by the victim's family.

Indiana Conservation Officers state that the 14 foot Reticulated Python was possessed legally under current Indiana Law.

-- Information from a press release from the Indiana Conservation Office

That is annoying. Indiana is probably going to push legislation to make it illegal to own one now...

I heart indian food!! And so do retics i guess!!!!!!!

Theres a popup java video of the story on the website. theres a link for it on the left...above the picture of the guy that died.

http://www.wave3.com/global/story.asp?s=5368163

Autopsy Confirms Owner Crushed To Death By Pet Python

By Anne Marshall

(LANESVILLE, Ind.) -- A 23-year-old Southern Indiana man is dead after being attacked by his pet snake. It happened in Lanesville, Indiana Monday evening. An autopsy report shows Patrick Von Allmen's 14-foot python crushed him to death. WAVE 3's Anne Marshall has the story.

It was a frightening end for a man who lived with little fear.

"It's so disturbing," says Patrick Von Alleman's neighbor of 18 years, Nancy Reinert. "When I first moved here, he was just a child, and he used to come over here and ask questions. He was always trying to learn, always curious."

After Patrick's early teenage years, Nancy says she noticed a growing fondness of snakes. "I'd see him out in the yard with a snake around his neck, showing the little kids in the neighborhood."

Monday night one of Patrick's 15 snakes, a 14-foot Reticulated Python, wrapped itself around his shoulders and neck, crushing him to death.

It was around 5 o'clock Monday evening when Patrick told his family he was going to go treat the snake for a condition known as "mouth rot." Three hours later, his family found him dead in their back shed, with the snake moving about unconfined.

"Wild animals don't necessarily make good pets," says Indiana Conservation Officer Mark Farmer.

With no witnesses, Farmer says they'll never know what prompted the snake to attack its owner. Patrick had gotten the snake as a pet about five months ago.

Says Farmer: "This is a tragic example of how a person experienced in handling animals lost his life due to a snake overpowering him."

For now, Reinert says her thoughts are with the young man who still had so much ahead and the family he leaves behind. "They're a good Christian family. They're just great people, that's all there is to it."

The python's weight is estimated at around 100 pounds. Patrick's body had no bite marks on it. It is legal to have a python in Indiana because it is not a venomous snake.

The snake was captured and given back to the family. They haven't decided whether they will keep it.

geez i think I will stick with ball pythons for a while...

The snake itself is not inherently dangerous. Handling the 14 foot python ALONE...is dangerous...especially treating it for mouth rot alone. Or performing any other medical treatment for that matter.

RIP Patrick, my thoughts and prayers are with the family, but after 10-12 years of experience handling snakes and reptiles, HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!! it was the handlers negligence that got him killed...obviously.

sorry but news like this is very very upsetting. his death was unnecessary to say the least. he could still be alive if he exercised proper handling.

That's definitely too bad, but with all of his snake experience he should of known it was unwise to handle it alone...

Wow thats sad:( .He should have known better to try and treat a large python for mouth rot all by himself :confused: .I bet the snake freaked out and reacted and in turn squeezed him to death.We will see how the lawmakers react to this one :irkd:

OK, I'm gonna get yelled at here, but...


Realizing there's a difference between responsible ownership and irresponsible ownership, and recognizing I've only owned my own BP for a bit more than a month now, I'm torn about whether really big snakes should be legal. From this forum, I've learned there are a lot of responsible folks out there who really do know what they're doing, and what they're in for. On the other hand, they are outnumbered, methinks, by those who don't. And that's reason enough, I think, for Burms and others to be outlawed unless the owner has some sort of license and can demonstrate they're up to the task.

This guy from Indiana might well have been. Still, by trying to handle that snake alone, he made what proved to be a fatal error. I know: Stuff happens.

More to the point, I've read more than a few articles about Burms running wild in Florida after being released by pet owners who found they couldn't handle an animal that outweighs them and can't be left alone for a vacation longer than three days because they can't find anyone who has the stomach or knowledge to feed it. Just today, I was cruising craigslist and found someone who was trying to unload a pair of year-old Burms. Then I went to the pet store to get a frozen mouse for my BP and saw red-tailed boas on sale. The sign didn't say how big they got.

Apologies for length, but I don't think sales of Burms or reticulateds or anacondas or even red-tailed boas should be unrestricted. Unfortunately, there's a whole lot of humans out there with less sense than a snake, and an equal number eager to make a buck from those who don't realize they'll soon need an enclosure the size of a small bathroom with accompanying heat and humidity controls. And for the next three or four decades.

Think about it. A BP--or any other reptile with equivalent life span--is a HUGE commitment. How many of us can truthfully say we'll always have an understanding landlord, or a secure job with our own house, for as long as these snakes will live? A BP or a corn or a King in an aquarium or plastic tub is one thing. A 100-plus pound snake is quite another.

I know. I'm new. I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But it seems to me that if aficianados of big snakes don't want the government to enact blanket bans, it's incumbent on them to work to pass laws to ban the sale of such snakes to anyone with a few bucks and a hankering. In short, the community, I think, should police itself before someone else does.

digcolnagos - I agree with you. I do own a burmese python and I was surprised at how easy it is to obtain them. Although I now the Snake store owner pretty well, he didn't even ask me if I knew what size it is capable of reaching. I though about the 'license' thing for a while and I honestly would not mind having to purchase/apply for one should that come into law. For years, I have been thinking of opening my own Reptile store and I have always wondered if it is legal to require that buyers of larger pythons/boas take a written 'test', most likely created by me. Should the buyer in question 'fail', then I would not sell the animal to that buyer (selling a snake to a responsible, caring owner would be more important to me than making a sale). I would ask that this buyer do more research on the animal. This idea is not 'fail-proof' yet, but I have been thinking about it a lot. Any suggestions on if this would work or if it is even legal?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by digcolnagos

OK, I'm gonna get yelled at here, but...

...

Apologies for length, but I don't think sales of Burms or reticulateds or anacondas or even red-tailed boas should be unrestricted. Unfortunately, there's a whole lot of humans out there with less sense than a snake, ....

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Hi. :) First off...we try real hard not to yell if someone is merely expressing an opinion. Although if someone is blatantly rude and/or insensitive, then sometimes our feathers may get a tad ruffled. I think you were neither rude nor insensitive...so no yelling from me. ;)

That being said, I did want to point out one thing you mentioned that makes me go "hmmmmm..." Yes indeed, there are a whole lot of humans out there with less sense than a snake. They also drive cars. And own dogs that they allow to become vicious animals. Or own dogs/cats that they allow to roam the streets to create thousands of unwanted puppies/kittes and go feral. Some of them even own guns! And any number of other things that are far more dangerous, destructive, and far more common...than owning a giant snake.

Personally, I don't agree with laws against them...because then where do they stop? 10'? 8'? 6'? How many of us are infatuated with Sheree's 8' rat snakes? Are they deadly? Hardly. I also think that while licensing seems like a good idea on the surface, the amount of beurocratic red-tape it would generate could get to be a nightmare...leaving deserving people unable to obtain one, while idiots still manage to slip through the cracks and get them.

The key, I believe, is education. Never, ever, ever stop trying to teach those you come in contact with. Especially the people who sell the animals. Work with them as best as you can...to help them learn the benefits of educating their customers. Certainly there won't be any instant changes...no easy fixes. And no matter what, there will always be the idiots who buy something dangerous and do something stupid with it.

I honestly think that anyone who sells a large snake should have a little more discretion about who they are giving it to. By placing that snake into the hands of an irresponsible owner, they are endangering their lives and anyone else that may come in contact with that snake. I think it is way too easy to obtain one and that they should be registered.

Not sound insensitive but its one death. Just because one guy dies because of his retic doesn't mean we have to change everything. About 150 people die each year from falling coconut but we're not digging up every palm tree. You can talk all about sellers responsiblilty but when your living comes from a pet shop you'll see it a bit differently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenmonkey51

Not sound insensitive but its one death. Just because one guy dies because of his retic doesn't mean we have to change everything. About 150 people die each year from falling coconut but we're not digging up every palm tree. You can talk all about sellers responsiblilty but when your living comes from a pet shop you'll see it a bit differently.

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It's not just one guy that has died. In Florida they are having problems in the everglades with people releasing large snakes into the wild because they got too big for them. Those snakes are begining to compete with the natural eco-system and in some cases becoming the top predator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenmonkey51

Not sound insensitive but its one death. Just because one guy dies because of his retic doesn't mean we have to change everything. About 150 people die each year from falling coconut but we're not digging up every palm tree. You can talk all about sellers responsiblilty but when your living comes from a pet shop you'll see it a bit differently.

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So the fact one has to make a living from a petshop excuses them from having to properly inform the buyer and possibly refuse sale to someone with obvious mis/no information?

Ugh, why did this have to happen in Indiana... my parents are going to flip, and then lecture me about how my snakes will kill me (my mother in particular doesn't understand the difference between a six foot Kinky and a 14 ft. Retic).

And then I get to point out that handling any snake over 8-10ft. by yourself really isn't a smart idea.

its sad news indeed any death by a captive snake but its not the 1st and certainly wont be the last either unfortunately.

Regarding licensing of giant snakes I am all for it myself although I appreciate what Judy stated above which are very valid points, my point and main one is for the health and well being of the snakes 1st and foremost.

By regulating and licensing snakes I think the benefits would outweigh the negative aspects. For example I would like to see animal welfare being involved in an auditing type of capacity in which they know who has snakes and are able to maintain communication with these people to ensure the snakes are kept in proper husbandry.

In this way people would have to take on the care for snakes knowing that are legally bound to provide adequate care and upkeep of the animals and ensure they are meeting the standards required. I understand the concerns regarding the "beurocratic red tape scenario" but if a proper and fair system is in place there should be reasonable ability to comply with the basics.

There are many people who do not make any serious effort to provide for their snakes and these kind of people would be "weeded" out leaving the serious keeper with a genuine interest left to generate interest and share correct information.

Animals that require specific care and attention are not in same care bracket as a companion type pet like a cat or dog for example that are free roaming and dont rely on us as much as a reptile does. For that reason I am more in inclined to be fore some sort of regulatory enforcement that ensures the welfare and well being of snakes and or reptiles in general.

I am not talking strict enforcement but more in line with a registration when purchasing an animal like a snake that puts you in a position of responsibility of that animal to give it what it requires in a safe and healthy environment.

I do agree that education is at the fore front in terms of ensuring snakes are living a healthy life and registration would allow targeting of people that are keeping snakes instead of just hoping to reach people by virtue of "putting it out there".

It's just my opinion on how I would like to see snake keeping progress as I feel currently anyone can buy a snake and keep it in anyway they like regardless of the negative aspects it inflicts upon the animals in question.

It saddens me that so many people are purchasing snakes and there is nothing in place to ensure the animal is kept in an environment befitting to its requirements.

there are many other aspects as well we could go into and I have just touched on one of them and I apologise for possibly going off topic a bit from the threads original concept.

I think there are valid arguements for and against but as I said it all boils down to whats best for the snakes IMO and registration and some form of "fair" licensing is the way to go.........shoot me or whatever its just my take on it. :)

Why did neither of these news stories make it very clear that he should NOT have been in that shed alone with a retic? It says his family was there, why did none of them go with him? I'm really confused why the news story did not point out that he was neglecting his own safety, and his family was also given the chance to correct his mistake and did not do so.

I don't think the answer is to make retics illegal. Lawmakers don't know when to stop, and this is why my BP is illegal in my home province (Not where I live right now but where I may move). Now that he is illegal, nobody wants to deal with changing it.
I'm definitely all for licensing - I will buy the license, take the tests, make the phonecalls. If my upkeep is correct and my snake is healthy and docile, I have nothing to hide from any regulatory board. (They'd probably get tired of hearing me tell them about my snake ALL THE TIME!!)

It reflects very poorly on us when a herper dies by a snake, even though it's on the news so rarely. It seems nobody realises that it is news BECAUSE it happens so rarely, not because it is the norm. I'd love to get a larger snake (probably a burmese or a retic) because I want to do education like Rusty does, but how can I do that if my collection becomes illegal?
:( Very sad story for him and his family.

Thanks for not yelling, Judy.

You're right, there will always be idiots. Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid. That applies, perhaps even especially, to the Legislature. I can just see it: What starts out being a bill to require licenses for retic's and Burms and anacondas ends up being a money-generation thing that applies to BP's, corns, rats. One of the problems is visceral fear of snakes--I think we've all seen it when we show our pets. Some folks just can't get past the Garden of Eden.

In a perfect world, though, the government would raise the threshold of entry for really big snakes and leave the BP owners of the world alone (although impulse buying certainly is a problem with all types of snakes). The difference, I think, is that if a BP or a Kingsnake gets loose, no one really much cares, because these species have never hurt anything bigger than a rat. But if a 20-foot "maneater" shows up in a park or someone's lawn, so do the television cameras, and the accompanying publicity is bad for everyone, including snakes of all stripes.

Amazingly, the government at least once has proven that it can do something like this. You can't own a hawk or falcon or other bird of prey without a federal permit. It's not easy or inexpensive to get one, nor should it be. These creatures require extremely specialized care, including very large enclosures, and that's expensive. The parallel is close: In a perfect world, the government would apply the same logic to big snakes. If you can't afford a couple hundred bucks and eight hours or so of education/testing to acquire a license, then you don't have enough money or wherewithal to handle an anaconda or a retic or a Burm or anything else that will soon need its own room in the house. Handled properly, such a program would virtually eliminate impulse buyers, and the biggest beneficiaries would be the snakes themselves, which is as it should be.

I know we don't do this sort of thing for dogs (which can maul and kill) or other kinds of pets, but snakes are different. They just are. Any of us who own them know that.

Such a program might be a pain for responsible owners who've already demonstrated their capacity to care for these creatures, but it's a darn sight better than outright bans, which is a real possibility in many jurisdictions. Of course, it's not likely that the government will show the same compassion for snakes as it does red-tailed hawks and other falcons.

This is a really great plan, but I don't know if any legislature in North America cares about snakes and snake owners enough to set up all of this infrastructure around it - paying to advertise the program, paying instructors to teach the class, paying to create and print materials, etc.

But I know how important it is. In Saskatchewan pretty much anything but King, Rat and Corn snakes are illegal!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by digcolnagos

Thanks for not yelling, Judy.

Amazingly, the government at least once has proven that it can do something like this. You can't own a hawk or falcon or other bird of prey without a federal permit. It's not easy or inexpensive to get one, nor should it be. These creatures require extremely specialized care, including very large enclosures, and that's expensive. The parallel is close: In a perfect world, the government would apply the same logic to big snakes. If you can't afford a couple hundred bucks and eight hours or so of education/testing to acquire a license, then you don't have enough money or wherewithal to handle an anaconda or a retic or a Burm or anything else that will soon need its own room in the house. Handled properly, such a program would virtually eliminate impulse buyers, and the biggest beneficiaries would be the snakes themselves, which is as it should be.

I know we don't do this sort of thing for dogs (which can maul and kill) or other kinds of pets, but snakes are different. They just are. Any of us who own them know that.

.

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Good post ...I think the key point is definately "specialised care" and really at the end of the day we need to look at care of the animals in question, if we can get the government on board and prevent them being "illegal" in favour of some kind of registration most keepers would be happy to follow any kind of validation that allows them to follow their interest.

Its the impulse buying that does alot of harm further down the line when the animals in question are too much of a challenge for their respective keepers who bought it on impulse in the 1st place.

You can't own a BP in Saskatchewan? Wow. On one level, that's silly. On another, I suppose it prevents a lot of snakes suffering at the hands of clueless owners. Still, there ought to be a way to own a BP or any other snake that's essentially harmless. I would happily pay a licensing fee to own my snake if the money for such a program went toward benefiting the species and ensuring responsible ownership.

How many other jurisdictions ban snake ownership, and to what species do the bans apply? Anyone know?

theres that silly word "attack" again. its sad about the guy R.I.P, but yeah handling a 14 foot snake and doing something that makes it uncomfortable(treatment) at teh same time is very stupid. i just hope they dont kill the snake.

I agree 100% with Snakey and Digcolnagos about how ideal the licensing could be. But despite the fact that I'm a very optimistic person by nature...when it comes to expecting or anticipating anything done right by the government...well...pessimism rules the day. :(


So anyhow...this is my little pessimistic rant...please forgive.

The fact that there is that kind of federal licensing program in place for raptors is, in fact, rather encouraging. At the very least, it shows that that sort of program CAN be done. However, its extremely rare for anyone to have an irrational fear of a falcon diving out of the sky to attack their heads. And while some people don't particularly favor birds, I've never heard of anyone who actually loathes them. In general, they are considered "romantic" animals that are widely admired and evoke positive emotional responses.

Fact is, far too many people fear snakes. And/or loath them beyond reason. It takes a tremendous amount of effort, persistence, and persuasion just to bring an item to the floor of the house and senate for consideration.....and so much more to actually get that item passed into law. WHO in government cares that much? And cares enough not only to make that effort, but to overcome the enourmous mountain of public negative emotions associated with any bill that has to do with snakes. Nevermind the fact that such a bill would actually HELP the snake-fearing public....just the fact that it has something to do with snakes would send them into a tailspin of panic demanding that all snakes be outlawed and disposed of.

And if it did pass...who would care enough to set the infrastructure into place properly and keep it there? Maybe the first guy who got this ball rolling would do a good job with it...but a few years later when someone else moves into that "office"...will they care? I can see such an "office" being completely understaffed and underfunded....because who cares about snakes??? What senator or congressman is going to fight for funding for the snake licenses? One guy will be sitting in a little closet in some ancient government building and expected to hand out licenses for everyone in the country who wants to own a giant snake....and expected to carry out inspections to insure those permits are deserved........

Bah....sorry!!!! You see my point. As I said, I'm normally a very optimistic person, but not when it comes to the government being able to get much of anything done properly.

Thanks for letting me rant.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by digcolnagos

You can't own a BP in Saskatchewan? Wow. On one level, that's silly. On another, I suppose it prevents a lot of snakes suffering at the hands of clueless owners. Still, there ought to be a way to own a BP or any other snake that's essentially harmless. I would happily pay a licensing fee to own my snake if the money for such a program went toward benefiting the species and ensuring responsible ownership.

How many other jurisdictions ban snake ownership, and to what species do the bans apply? Anyone know?

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I know NY sucks when it comes to reptiles/snakes! Haha, they are pushing to make it illegal to get any snake over 10 ft here. Almost got it too. Retics, Burms, Condas, some monitors, etc are all banned without a license now. I want a burm badly too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I know NY sucks when it comes to reptiles/snakes! Haha, they are pushing to make it illegal to get any snake over 10 ft here. Almost got it too. Retics, Burms, Condas, some monitors, etc are all banned without a license now. I want a burm badly too!

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But you can at least get a license. I'd have to call myself a zoo or a farm to keep my snake. I am neither a zoo nor a farm!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mousch

But you can at least get a license. I'd have to call myself a zoo or a farm to keep my snake. I am neither a zoo nor a farm!

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True, but it's hard to do! Nearly impossible if you weren't "grandfathered" into the deal. Even then some were turned down. My buddy brought his 16 ft Burmese into the DEA (or whatever it is) and handed it over...no cage...no bag...just the burm...all of a sudden they were more cooperative with him and he got his license within a few days. :banana:

hahaha that's one way to do it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

I agree 100% with Snakey and Digcolnagos about how ideal the licensing could be. But despite the fact that I'm a very optimistic person by nature...when it comes to expecting or anticipating anything done right by the government...well...pessimism rules the day. :(


So anyhow...this is my little pessimistic rant...please forgive.

The fact that there is that kind of federal licensing program in place for raptors is, in fact, rather encouraging. At the very least, it shows that that sort of program CAN be done. However, its extremely rare for anyone to have an irrational fear of a falcon diving out of the sky to attack their heads. And while some people don't particularly favor birds, I've never heard of anyone who actually loathes them. In general, they are considered "romantic" animals that are widely admired and evoke positive emotional responses.

Fact is, far too many people fear snakes. And/or loath them beyond reason. It takes a tremendous amount of effort, persistence, and persuasion just to bring an item to the floor of the house and senate for consideration.....and so much more to actually get that item passed into law. WHO in government cares that much? And cares enough not only to make that effort, but to overcome the enourmous mountain of public negative emotions associated with any bill that has to do with snakes. Nevermind the fact that such a bill would actually HELP the snake-fearing public....just the fact that it has something to do with snakes would send them into a tailspin of panic demanding that all snakes be outlawed and disposed of.

And if it did pass...who would care enough to set the infrastructure into place properly and keep it there? Maybe the first guy who got this ball rolling would do a good job with it...but a few years later when someone else moves into that "office"...will they care? I can see such an "office" being completely understaffed and underfunded....because who cares about snakes??? What senator or congressman is going to fight for funding for the snake licenses? One guy will be sitting in a little closet in some ancient government building and expected to hand out licenses for everyone in the country who wants to own a giant snake....and expected to carry out inspections to insure those permits are deserved........

Bah....sorry!!!! You see my point. As I said, I'm normally a very optimistic person, but not when it comes to the government being able to get much of anything done properly.

Thanks for letting me rant.....

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yeah Judy I can see exactly what your saying and I share your concerns , I too am an optimistic person in general until it comes to my own government which is not the most awe inspiring when it comes to getting things done right or indeed fair.

I guess the 1st best option IMO would be to get an organisation invloved that is respected (eg) in the UK we have RSPCA -Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and if a large body such as this was involved in and accepting of registration and monitoring of care then it would go some way to reducing hopefully government "foolish" perspectives.

The problem being money of course and funding of such an operation and again relying on the government to indeed care enough to put thier hands in the pocket deep enough would be a challenge.

I dont know what the answer is as your quite correct snakes in general dont have the same value in "cuteness" or interest as other animals.

My point was more in an ideal world scenario IMO, how we attain such a structure is a puzzle that will remain unfinished for some time I am sure.

Its a sad state of affairs ....much like our government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

I agree 100% with Snakey and Digcolnagos about how ideal the licensing could be. But despite the fact that I'm a very optimistic person by nature...when it comes to expecting or anticipating anything done right by the government...well...pessimism rules the day. :(


So anyhow...this is my little pessimistic rant...please forgive.

The fact that there is that kind of federal licensing program in place for raptors is, in fact, rather encouraging. At the very least, it shows that that sort of program CAN be done. However, its extremely rare for anyone to have an irrational fear of a falcon diving out of the sky to attack their heads. And while some people don't particularly favor birds, I've never heard of anyone who actually loathes them. In general, they are considered "romantic" animals that are widely admired and evoke positive emotional responses.

Fact is, far too many people fear snakes. And/or loath them beyond reason. It takes a tremendous amount of effort, persistence, and persuasion just to bring an item to the floor of the house and senate for consideration.....and so much more to actually get that item passed into law. WHO in government cares that much? And cares enough not only to make that effort, but to overcome the enourmous mountain of public negative emotions associated with any bill that has to do with snakes. Nevermind the fact that such a bill would actually HELP the snake-fearing public....just the fact that it has something to do with snakes would send them into a tailspin of panic demanding that all snakes be outlawed and disposed of.

And if it did pass...who would care enough to set the infrastructure into place properly and keep it there? Maybe the first guy who got this ball rolling would do a good job with it...but a few years later when someone else moves into that "office"...will they care? I can see such an "office" being completely understaffed and underfunded....because who cares about snakes??? What senator or congressman is going to fight for funding for the snake licenses? One guy will be sitting in a little closet in some ancient government building and expected to hand out licenses for everyone in the country who wants to own a giant snake....and expected to carry out inspections to insure those permits are deserved........

Bah....sorry!!!! You see my point. As I said, I'm normally a very optimistic person, but not when it comes to the government being able to get much of anything done properly.

Thanks for letting me rant.....

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You're welcome. You seem to have an excellent grasp of government and the way the world really works. What snakes need is a good PR campaign, someone to point out that "Don't Tread On Me" came before the bald eagle and the Star Spangled Banner. Appeal to patriotism. That always seems to work at the political level. Until then, all that can really be done, I guess, is for folks like us to put pressure on irresponsible pet stores wherever and whenever we find them. If they're not posting signs about how big these animals can get and the intricacies of caring for them, if they're giving out inaccurate information, if they're putting profits ahead of good husbandry, then we should all be complaining to the headquarters in the case of franchised operations and to the Humane Society and animal-protective folks if owners refuse to improve. We should be contacting the media if we find reptiles in squalor. (Among other things, I worry when I see stores with more than one Burm or red-tail boa in stock--makes me think they'll be less than honest with potential buyers simply to reduce inventory). Now that I think about it, perhaps there should be a code of conduct, a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, so to speak, that pet stores could post if they met certain standards established by a reputable national herp society (is there such a thing?) Publicize the importance of dealing only with breeders and stores that meet these standards. Maybe something like that would work. In short, if the government can't or won't do it (and Judy's right, I think), perhaps private enterprise can do the next best thing and take advantage of opportunities--even the recent death of the Croc Hunter might work--to educate the public.

well i'm a numbers guy so i'll just look on the bright side...

although tragic, this is one (of very few) instance of something bad happening among the thousands of large snake owners in the US. what is the percent of pet owning people that are killed by their pets? probably extremely small... and what percent of that percent is from large pythons and boas? again, probably extremely small.

its my opinion that there's really too much governing going on in all the wrong places. expanding govt and creating new laws and rules is just out of hand these days... everyone's trying to make everything too safe, whether its owning a snake or banning certain types of playground equipment. i could seriously list 100 things easily that have been banned, regulated, or at least tabooed by the government, or by systems motivated and ran by the government (media) just in my lifetime... and i'm only 24! :banana:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mousch

But you can at least get a license. I'd have to call myself a zoo or a farm to keep my snake. I am neither a zoo nor a farm!

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Just don't clean your house or something and fence in the dust bunnies. then you could apply for one or the other... :D ... or i could anyways...

i hope i don't upset anybody, but i must say...all of these adjectives being used to describe a person who just lost his life ("idiot," "stupid," etc.) are very uncalled for. i know that nobody "means" to say hurtful things...and some weren't "specifically" calling this gentleman that, but it doesn't matter. this man was obviously of lover of reptiles. which means that quite possibly he had some friends and family that love them too. who's to say that one of them is not going to stumble across this post and be really hurt by some of the comments. yes, hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20, but at least have a little more respect for this person. the point is, a person is dead now. never coming back. it's good to debate about licensing, etc...but let's leave out all of the self-righteous comments. thanks.

absolutely.

It is OBVIOUS he did not excercise proper handling techniques, even though it has been confirmed that he DID in fact know better. Him dieing as a result does not make him an "idiot" or anything else for that matter. He knew better and didnt play by the rules...that is a fact, but names calling is NOT necessary.

Friends of his are members of various msg boards, our thoughts, prayers, and condolensces should be with them and Patrick's family. again, RIP Patrick, let your death be a reminder to us all how important it is to practice responsible handling.

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Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

well i'm a numbers guy so i'll just look on the bright side...

although tragic, this is one (of very few) instance of something bad happening among the thousands of large snake owners in the US. what is the percent of pet owning people that are killed by their pets? probably extremely small... and what percent of that percent is from large pythons and boas? again, probably extremely small.

its my opinion that there's really too much governing going on in all the wrong places. expanding govt and creating new laws and rules is just out of hand these days... everyone's trying to make everything too safe, whether its owning a snake or banning certain types of playground equipment. i could seriously list 100 things easily that have been banned, regulated, or at least tabooed by the government, or by systems motivated and ran by the government (media) just in my lifetime... and i'm only 24! :banana:

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I feel exactly the same, could not of said it better myself!

Having talked to some people who knew him well, it was very unusual for him to have gone in by himself. Unforunately, he paid the price for it.

As it is, a couple (who are experienced herpers) who knew him have adopted the rest of his reptiles and will be finding homes for them. They are also auctioning one of their boas to help out his family.

http://www.primareptilia.com/memorial.html

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

Having talked to some people who knew him well, it was very unusual for him to have gone in by himself. Unforunately, he paid the price for it.

As it is, a couple (who are experienced herpers) who knew him have adopted the rest of his reptiles and will be finding homes for them. They are also auctioning one of their boas to help out his family.

http://www.primareptilia.com/memorial.html

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I heard he rarely fed his snake.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I heard he rarely fed his snake.

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I can just imagine how many rumors are flying around about the recently deceased. Sadly these things happen....
Winslow and I have been working with some very large boids and varanids over the last 10 to 15 years. I just want to comment a bit about a few things in this thread.
On the issue of the gentleman who handled the snake by himself and sadly had his life taken because of this.
None of us were there. None of us know the situation. From what I have heard (and I cannot confirm this as I do not know him or his family) the man was an experienced reptile keeper. The golden rule in our house is Winslow and I know which snakes both of us have to be present for before opening the enclosure (and which monitors too). But the bottom line is there have been rare cases where I have been on my own and have had to handle large snakes. For instance I was out on a call with a local Animal Control Officer. Someone abandoned a 16 foot Reticulated python on a property owned by an elderly woman. We went out, I was able to bag the snake with only a minimal struggle. I was lucky. No one that was with me had any idea on how to handle a large snake let alone what to do in case of any trouble. That is just one instance. It happens, and I in no way would want someone telling me that i was an idiot for what I did. I could have been more prepared, but that is not always possible.
As for the legalities into owning a large snake.
I, running a rescue center, in no way would like to see more giant boids in the hands of folks who cannot care for them. But I do not agree with the government stepping in to enforce any laws about it. (some of you may be surprised by this) But the bottom line is that (at least here in this state) the government has absolutely no concept about large snakes and their care. The one enforcment agency in this state that would be in charge of this type of thing cannot even make up their own minds about what native species you can keep legally or not. The laws in this state are no more then written on a dry erase board and changed at any individuals whim.....
The laws are not clear and they are not comunicated correctly by any means. God forbid they were the ones whom would tell us if we were able to continue taking in these snakes.
In the end I think it comes down to individual ownership. People who are responsible and caring should be allowed to own these snakes at there will. That's their right. If I ran the world no one would ever be able to take something out of the wild and keep it in a box ever again, but I do not run the world.
I think the best we can do is promote captive breeding programs for those species whose numbers are being devistated in the wild, and becoming the most responsible pet owners we can be. Educate others and never stop learning ourselves.
Rusty

Sorry to dredge up such a very old thread, but it has been almost a year since Patrick died, and I made a promise to his dad to educate in his name. I think that, as we approach the anniversary of his death, it is a good time to have a bit of a reminder of why it is important to always respect giant snakes and handle them safely.

For those of you who don't know me very well yet, I'm Donnie Smith, owner of PrimaReptilia and until recently I was an officer in the Kentucky Herp Society. Since there is a lot of speculation about exactly what happened and why, I'd like to clarify a little bit.

The Von Allmen family have been very active members of the Herp Society for several years. My wife and I became good friends with the family. When Patrick started getting into retics, we cautioned him on Several occasions to take every precaution with them and never handle them alone. He really did know better. The first thing his older brother Craig said to me at the funeral home was "He was being stupid".

The best we can piece together (since no one else was there) is that he took the snake out, restrained her head, and began treating her mouth. She must have spazzed out and tightened down on him, just simply because she was not comfortable. There was not a bite mark on him and we all know that Retics have Big Teeth. That would have been found. He did have a wound on the back of his head that would most likely been caused by hitting his head as he fell, but the coroner's report stated that the actually cause of death was "consistent with asphyxiation due to compression about the neck and chest."

The other thing I wanted to clarify is the size of the snake. The media grossly overestimated the length. She was actually approximately 11'.

http://www.primareptilia.com/gallery...sure.sized.jpg

That picture was taken on 9/11/06... roughly a week after Patrick died on the day that I took possession of the snake.

The following link is almost required reading. It is one of the better news reports as well as a letter from Patrick's Mom.

Patrick Von Allmen Tribute Page

So Patrick, we miss you buddy. Your babies are doing good.

http://www.primareptilia.com/gallery...vari.sized.jpg

Thanks for providing an update, Donnie. That was a very unfortunate death and I feel bad for everyone involved.

I think it's important for those in the hobby to realize that even though the media blows these incidents out of proportion, these creatures still demand the utmost respect. Frankly I'm amazed at the size of the retic. I would never have guessed that a snake of that size would be capable of overpowering a full grown man, and hopefully those with giants will read this and be vigilant in taking all appropriate precautions in handling these snakes.

just wanted to say i'm very sorry for your loss. and thank you for bumping this thread up! i think it's very important for giant owners to be reminded of why they should follow precautions... there's no reason for deaths like this to happen!

It is a terrible tragedy for that to happen, but I applaude the efforts of everyone involved in getting the truth out, and the understanding out there as well.


He will not have died in vain, and I am glad to have been able to read up on this.

Education is the key.

Hi, it seems I see this ad several places, first off I live in Indiana and quite familiar with this accident. One I raise Retics for pets and not to knock other speices but except for size retics make a good pet. Just like amanda in W.V no one came forward to tell the whole story. I was to purchase Diablo 2 days prior. Both cases, no one tells how thier snake was sick and were tryining to force antibiadics down their throat. How many people reading this would like some one to force they mouth open and shove items down theirs? People have a voice and arms to defend themselves. A snake has none of these. Yet this ad condems this snake and others like it. Yes it is tragic but and accident that could of been avoided. Their animals were sick and both knew better than to do this by theirself. Amanda never mentioned hers was sick and other than parents of this victim I bet no one knew this either. If some one is offended by my remark, look at the whole picture and put yourself in the snakes place, it reacted in defense as you or I would. I would like ads and remarks like this one kept off forums for the fact of how they blow everything out of proportion and truth. It doesn't help when a young person wanting to own a pet sees this article.

Just one more example of how an owner did not follow the clear safety precautions for handling a large constrictor. On top of that, when you messing with something that is 12 -20 + feet long and you think it's a ok to try to medicate it you making a very large mistake. Now this will be used as ammo against us. I feel very sorry for his family. This stinks.

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Originally Posted by sulawesi

Hi, it seems I see this ad several places, first off I live in Indiana and quite familiar with this accident. One I raise Retics for pets and not to knock other speices but except for size retics make a good pet. Just like amanda in W.V no one came forward to tell the whole story. I was to purchase Diablo 2 days prior. Both cases, no one tells how thier snake was sick and were tryining to force antibiadics down their throat. How many people reading this would like some one to force they mouth open and shove items down theirs? People have a voice and arms to defend themselves. A snake has none of these. Yet this ad condems this snake and others like it. Yes it is tragic but and accident that could of been avoided. Their animals were sick and both knew better than to do this by theirself. Amanda never mentioned hers was sick and other than parents of this victim I bet no one knew this either. If some one is offended by my remark, look at the whole picture and put yourself in the snakes place, it reacted in defense as you or I would. I would like ads and remarks like this one kept off forums for the fact of how they blow everything out of proportion and truth. It doesn't help when a young person wanting to own a pet sees this article.

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If you're serious about wanting "ads" like this kept off forums, then why resurrect a 3.5 year old thread that was long deeply buried and pull it back to the front page??? And did you even read the thread? Do you know where you're posting? The people on this site are NOT blaming the snake or making such animals out to be the bad guy in tragedies like this. Every one of us here realize the responsibility that the keepers bear in these situations.

I also completely disagree with your statement that such threads as this don't help young people wanting to keep giant snakes as pets. The risks and dangers involved in keeping such animals needs to be known....trying to bury such stories and pretend they don't exist and make like giant snakes "make a good pet except for the size" downplays the risks and puts more young people in danger rather than educating them on how such powerful animals should be kept safely.

Looks like someone just wants trouble.

Sounds pretty suspicious to me too. I was all ready to comment on the timing of this when I saw that the date of the original post was September 2006. What exactly was the purpose of dredging this up again from such a long time ago?

sombodies just asking for it
my 2 cents.
evern though this is a loooonnng time ago, i feel no remorse for the kid, dumby should of known if he had all that expience that you dont treat a snake that big by yourself, wasted life and thorn to be brought up again

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Originally Posted by BOWSER11788

sombodies just asking for it
my 2 cents.
evern though this is a loooonnng time ago, i feel no remorse for the kid, dumby should of known if he had all that expience that you dont treat a snake that big by yourself, wasted life and thorn to be brought up again

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This was rude and uncalled for, regardless of whether or not someone made a terrible mistake that lead to their death, a loss remain a loss and a very tragic thing for the family, he was someone's son in case you forgot that when insulting him and hopefully you will never have to go through what a parent losing a child goes through (mistake or not)

well i feel bad for his family, but yea, guess im big meanie, thats the same as the idiots driving while texting and getting killed in an accident. oh poor kids, well simple changes, yes it sux for the kid, but IM possitive that wasn't the first known case of a constrictor killing a person, so the kid is bound to have heard of the dangers. mabye its cause im young and don't have kids but this death could of been 99% avoided if at least one other person was there. Guess i'm an extremist when it comes to getting my animals banned. Its differant than th girl in florida, she was young and it was her parents fault cause she didn't know the danger but the sub-adult kid KNEW IT, sorry if i tick'd some people off and I apologize for letting my feeling be known and as stated in prevous post want to know why this so-how go to the top