New Corn - inconsistent / difficult eater

I adopted a new corn snake a few months back, but I've had some trouble getting her to eat consistently. She was born 9/9/22. I tried to set her up similar to my other corn snake who has never refused a meal. She's currently in a 20 gallon with an UTH pad, 3x hides, climbing ops, and CocoBlock substrate. Despite the infrequent eating, she looks small but healthy and has shed twice without issues. The prior owner did indicate she wasn't a great eater.

Feeding Results and Notes:
5/15 - Fuzzy (prior owner)
--- 5/21 Rehomed to me ---
5/23 - Fuzzy (FAIL)
6/6 - Fuzzy (FAIL) - This was a day after her first shed. I was hopeful that was why she didn't eat, but still refused this meal.
6/10 - Fuzzy (1st Success) - By this time I was a little desperate, so fed her in small plastic enclosure where I left a brained fuzzy overnight.
6/24 - Pinkie (FAIL)
6/27 - Pinkie (2nd Success) - Moved to smaller prey b/c the fuzzy left a very large lump.
7/1 - Pinkie (3rd Success)
7/11 - Pinkie (4th Success)
7/15 - Fuzzy (5th Success)
7/23 - Pinkie (FAIL) - Was happy to get some consistency, so tried feeding her in her regular cage. This failed the next few times.
7/27 - Fuzzy (FAIL)
8/2 - Fuzzy (FAIL) - This was a day after 2nd shed. I was hopeful that was why she didn't eat, but still refused this meal.
8/4 - Pinkie (6th Success) - Went back to separate feeding enclosure.
8/12 - Fuzzy (FAIL)

Questions & Notes:
Should I try some other type of heat source besides the UTH? My other corn didn't need it, but I read that heating them up can encourage feeding. She tends to use the middle hide box which is near, but not over the UTH.
Should I try scenting with anole, lizard, or other scent? Could I have thrown any of this off by thawing her mouse with the rats for my boas?
Should I stick with pinkies for now, perhaps 2 per feeding?
Should I keep feeding in separate enclosure until she's much more consistent? She's refused 100% of meals left outside of her hide boxes (or inside).
Any other tips or thoughts?
Handling has been kept to a bare minimum, especially when she's not been eating.
I've brained the mouse in nearly every attempt since the first successful feeding.
I've never actually seen her strike her prey or eat. All successful feedings were in separate enclosure left covered in darkened room for at least an hour.

What are the warm and cool side temps?

Mice & rats smell & taste vastly different, so do not thaw mice & rats together if you have a snake that won't eat both happily. The smell of rat may signal danger to a small snake (like a corn) that only eats mice & has been a picky eater. Yes, you blew that- so from now on, thaw mice by themselves, & if you want to release a little more mouse scent, I just pinch-damage the rodent's nose with my feeding tongs right before feeding- since thawing in water will wash off some of the scent. Some snakes care, others don't. I've never found "braining" to be helpful in all the corn & other snakes I've raised. Pinching the nose is enough for scent. Feed at night, btw.

Since this snake has accepted mice, I would NOT advise now scenting with anole or other lizard- you do NOT want that to be her preference for life, do you?
And feeding snakes on other reptiles increases danger of parasites & diseases- so no, don't even go there.:colbert:

As Homebody posted, what are the temps??? -In the snake's home & in the room? I only use UTH (in one corner of each tank) for my corns, but my house is about 69-70* winter & 78-80* in summer. My corn snakes prefer mid- low 70's most of the time. They also enjoy a humid hide. Temp. over the UTH should not exceed low 80's.

Might want to get a stool sample checked for this snake- sometimes parasites can cause these symptoms. A dose of Flagyl (metronidazole) might do the trick, or Panacur (fenbendazole), or both. Flagyl tends to improve appetite in snakes anyway- amoeba issues are not rare in snakes. ONLY USE ONE MEDICATION AT A TIME & light doses are always safer- you (or preferably vet) can always re-do. (Did previous owner feed live, ever?)

Not seeing the snake so I can't advise what size prey is best (pinky or fuzzy)- most likely something "in between". 2 pinkies at a time are also a good way to transition.

I don't advise moving snakes to feed- no idea why you might have had luck with doing so. (temperatures??? privacy???) How big are the hides this snake has?

Sometimes small corn snakes (or other colubrid hatchlings) will eat when left in a small paper lunch bag (not air tight- make a few air holes) with their prey overnight. Do not check until morning- & leave them alone with their f/t (dead) prey. Don't trust a paper bag to be "secure"- leave the bag IN their normal secure cage & NOT over/under the heat.

I find brief sun exposure often perks up a snake's appetite- but never leave in a container outside - snakes can die quickly from heat stroke from sun- always hand carry & for small snakes be mindful of your own body heat that can also overheat a small snake very easily. Keep it brief in warm weather.

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So if still no progress after all the above is patiently addressed, it's possible that either this is a case of "failure to thrive" (it's been almost a year since she was hatched- not "born" ;) - and sometimes a snake may have internal abnormalities that either cause death or make survival a much bigger challenge) or perhaps she was exposed to some sort of chemical* that caused some lasting harm. (*such as improper methods or heavy-handed eradication of mites, for example)

But hopefully not- hopefully you can get her straightened out.

Temps are 79-80 ambient and ~85 over UTH. Humidity is ~50%.

I opted to try the smaller feeding tank because she would just move away anytime I put food in her 20 gallon. Whenever I put food in, I would find her on the opposite side of the tank 1-2 hours later.

I'll definitely not thaw them with rats anymore. I didn't every time previously, but perhaps that contributed. I'll skip the lizard scent idea too then.

The hides are 2 of the 4 inch planter tray bottoms on each side and a roughly 20oz black plastic microwave container that she prefers most (it's taller than the planters).

Forgot to mention that we covered 3 sides of the enclosure for more privacy a week or so ago.

I just weighed her and she's 22g.

I think that hit everything asked, but let me know if I missed something.

That's a gorgeous corn snake! :love:

If your ambient temp. is that warm, turn off the UTH. Turn it back on when it cools down to 75-ish or below. (In the summer, I turn my UTHs off when it's consistently that warm- at least for my corns.) Humidity is fine, they're not real fussy about that.

Make sure her hides are snug for her- corn snakes LOVE crumpled or shredded paper towel to snuggle into- you might try filling (not compacting) the hides so she feels more secure.

And I wouldn't offer more frequently than once every 6-7 days. Too soon can stress snakes, & they need time to feel hungry & brave enough to do something about it.

How do the stools look? (besides too little) Honestly, I would try a low dose* of Flagyl on this snake before too long if the change in thawing her food doesn't help (it's pretty safe & effective)- *I don't recall dosage off the top so look it up or have vet do it- you'd probably have to tube it into her since she's not eating anyway. (I can give you instructions on tube feeding if you want.) Sometimes when snakes (for various reasons) don't eat enough, their body is too weak to fend off minor things (parasites etc) so it's important to get them on track before things can snowball.

Her weight doesn't mean much to me- I don't weigh my snakes unless I need to calculate a dose of something (& that's happily been rare). I go by how they look & act.

Believe me, I know how frustrating this can be. ;)

Fecals look visibly normal. I just cleaned a pile of urates when I went in to get the pic and weigh her. Nothing obviously off with them.

Would you wait 6-7 days even when she's doesn't eat or only eats a single pinkie? I get worried with her low weight that I should try every 3-4. Was thinking about trying again tonight. It's only been 2 days since last attempt, but 10 since she's last eaten.

Most of the growth charts have her at about half of what she should weigh at 11 months. She doesn't look obviously emaciated to me though.

How about waiting 5 days before retrying. Just keep in mind that too often can backfire, but you're seeing & working with this snake, so use your best judgement. But also bear in mind that in the wild, these little snakes don't likely get food anywhere near as often as what we provide, & as with humans, hydration is more essential to life than food. (both are awfully nice though, lol)

I agree she doesn't look emaciated, but keep in mind that a stressed snake (like when being handled) often inflates so they don't look as thin as they really might be.

Keep a dose of Flagyl in mind or ask your vet- if it helps (& I've not seen any harm, it's safe when dosed for the weight of a snake) & boosts her appetite, that's the ballgame.

Try a bit of sunshine too- seen that work too.

And who cares what a chart says? Every snake is different- even one disadvantaged with a slow start can do just fine with the right care. As I said, wild snakes typically grow much slower than our pets with room service.

I know zilch about corns, so I reviewed the forum's caresheet for them. It said, "Juvenile corns seem to do well in smaller enclosures that make them feel more secure; a small snake in a big cage can become overwhelmed & stressed." So, maybe you should consider a smaller enclosure.

Considered the smaller enclosure and was just about there before I had the string of successes. I'm hoping the hides, clutter, and blackening in the 3 sides of the enclosure accomplish roughly the same thing as a smaller tank. Have also considered moving to a dark and quiet part of the house. Will reconsider all of that if I don't get another string of successes soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I know zilch about corns, so I reviewed the forum's caresheet for them. It said, "Juvenile corns seem to do well in smaller enclosures that make them feel more secure; a small snake in a big cage can become overwhelmed & stressed." So, maybe you should consider a smaller enclosure.

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Since she's acting like a hatchling, it might be a good idea to start over & treat her like one. When I hatched out corn snakes (& some of them were awful eaters for a while too) they were raised in "shoebox size" polycarbonate containers w/ ventilated tops (-made for pets- they used to called them "Critter Cottages" etc.). I lined the floor w/ paper towel, then shredded several paper towels for substrate, & layered another paper towel most of the way over the shreds, & held that in place with a small water bowl, so they could weave in & out of the shreds (like leaf litter would be outside) & feel very well hidden. Small hides or cardboard rolls can be added too. Just kept everything low-key until they had a good feeding record, then they moved up to bigger "apartments".

Another option I endorse (& have used for various colubrids, esp. kings): https://beanfarm.com/products/herpatat-hide-out-small (And you did say she liked the black container?)

In this case, the water bowl sits in the recessed area on top- you can put lots of fluff (shreds or crumpled pieces) inside the hide, & when you feed the snake, just leave it near the edge of the hole at night- the snake will feel safe & hidden enough to grab it & eat where they feel safe.

Either way, when snakes get braver & used to eating with humans around (& most eventually learn to eat from tongs -corns are usually great feeders) their housing can change with their "maturity" & skills.

Has this snake ever been fed live pinkies? I would certainly try that- just to get her feeding. Most of the snakes I've raised had live first, just to help establish their recognition of prey. After that, some will accept f/t right off, otherwise when they're big enough to eat say 2 pinkies, you give them one live + one f/t- they usually make the leap easily, & you can feed all f/t once they've had several meals that way- you've taught them to recognize f/t prey. Maybe she was rushed to f/t & never got a good transition- snake have to follow their instincts first, & then learn to generalize.

Not sure when she was moved to FT. Where do folks usually get their live pinkies?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nick_MD

Not sure when she was moved to FT. Where do folks usually get their live pinkies?

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Pet stores, local breeders. Do some networking in your area- ask herp clubs, exotic vet offices or zoos, or put out a free want ad. Personally, I raise my own, always have, because pet stores aren't usually dependable- & I've been keeping & breeding or raising many some snakes for literally decades, & have had some challenging snakes that need consistent pinkies/fuzzies etc. I actually had a small side business raising rats, mice & hamsters for a while (besides feeding all my own snakes, I supplied local pet stores & others) but it's labor intensive & I no longer keep so many snakes or the variety as I did then, so I only raise mice now. Healthy rodents are very prolific :O but I also like to control the quality of my feeders. They're always pet quality "fancy" & fed quality professional food plus supplemental health foods (like kale). Pity I'm nowhere near you- I'd happily give you pinkies, as I always have too many.

You can also ask in this sub-forum here: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/foru...tion-or-Wanted (because you "want" these, your request must go only in that forum as an "ad"- okay?) Maybe another member here is in your area?

She ate two pinkies late last night (8/16). First time she's eaten without being moved to separate enclosure. I left two FT pinkies in front of the hide I knew she was using (cool side planter bottom), then covered the full enclosure, turned out the room lights and left her for 45 minutes. I came back to check and both pinkies were gone. Only changes this time - I thawed them without rats and pinched the noses instead of braining.

Beautiful! :gj: Keep up the good work, she'll learn. FYI- only waiting 45 minutes before peeking was RISKY with a shy (poor) feeder. I'd have waited for morning. ;) But glad it worked- just keep on- she'll likely improve- but give her a good week now before offering again. Preferably when she's acting hungry AND also not visibly in shed.

Moving snakes to separate containers to feed was an idea promoted by those afraid to get bit by their snakes wanting food instead of handling, & in any case, it's a bad idea for many reasons. And I sure wouldn't worry about a bitey young corn snake- :rofl: (but other cues can be used to show you're not incoming prey anyway)

I peeked after 45 min b/c I had a Plan B if she hadn't eaten them. I did notice she was more active this week and seemed to do more exploring. Perhaps growing comfort with new home, blackening the 3 sides, hunger, or a combination of those.

My goal in using the separate enclosure was purely to keep her near the prey since she kept moving away from it early on. Basically to counter the whole "enclosure is too big" problem. Interesting side note that 20+ years ago when I had the Dumerils Boa, the conventional wisdom was to feed in separate enclosures. That's one thing that seemed to have completely flipped when I started the research to get back into reptiles a few years ago. All 4 of my boas and the other corn eat in their normal enclosures now. I have had to tap train the boas though.

Interestingly, this little girl did tag me several times over a couple minutes in the first week I had her here. Didn't even break skin. Was cute. She still does the tail vibration occasionally, but she's decidedly more calm now.

I've raised quite a number of corn snakes (& many other kinds of snakes too)- hatchling corns have teeth so small that even with their best efforts. their bites don't feel like anything more than fine grit sandpaper on adult skin- about as harmful as being gently pecked by a sunflower seed. :rofl: Such cute little critters. I'd agree, success was a combination of all that you mentioned- jumpstarted by finally having prey that smelled right. Some snakes are more sensitive while others are bolder. Being re-homed was a set-back & she had an "iffy" start in the first place- that was your cue for extra TLC. I love sassy little snakes that vibrate their tails. :D But it's only self-defense, not aggression. We're big scary giants to them. At least I am. :cool:

With some decent regular meals, this snake should feel stronger & braver- much like anything else, human kids & other critters, they have to gain strength, confidence & experience to thrive. Compared to many other kinds of snakes, corn snakes are docile to begin with, a trait they share with ball pythons. Even so, most snakes are shy, & they're most confident in their own home.

The notion that snakes should be fed in a side container/cage to avoid "cage aggression" has been around a long time- & I wish I had a dollar for every time we have to tackle it again online. Snakes are essentially wild animals even when captive bred. As such, they rely on their instincts to survive- so remember that the only thing that picks them up in the wild is a predator that's about to eat them. :O Nothing like fear & stress to put off an appetite, eh? So no matter how gently you pick up a snake- even when it seems relaxed, it's not- & the mere act of handling them prior to feeding is an appetite turn-off. Young snakes have all they can do to summon the courage to tackle their prey in nature- done wrong, they can end up as the meal, or injured. They're at their best (most confident) in their own territory. Handling is a distraction from their need to feed.

The other problem with doing that is that snakes tend to stay in "feed mode" for anywhere from hours to a day or more after they do eat. So do you REALLY want to be picking up a hungry snake at the outset (bite risk if they misread you) & then risk having to put them back after they're really pumped up from taking a meal. Bad idea- especially with bigger snakes- so it's a bad habit to get into, even when they're small.

And the good news is that snakes learn to read signals from us that it's time to handle, not have dinner. Some people like to "tap train", but the most effective technique will vary with the species & individual personalities. Many of my snakes respond when I give them my scent- I blow air across my hand & thru the screen so they get it- or you can dangle long hair or an empty sleeve in front of them- anything to give them your scent as a reminder that what's coming is not edible, while keeping out of their way. I have some large rat snakes with monster appetites- for them, a spray of water mist in their face usually "changes the channel"- though it might take a couple times. And it's not "mean"- snakes get rained on in nature & mine will even drink from a water spray. ;) Whatever works, as long as no one gets hurt, eh?

Anyway, I think this cutie will keep improving now- you're on the right track. Some day maybe she'll even respond like your boas- :snake2: (evil laugh)

You may have broken through the resistance, here's hoping. In the meantime, these are some minor husbandry thoughts that may or may not be useful:

I'd set up an itty bitty tub (a six-quart tub or even just one of those black 'meal prep' bowls with a lid) in her larger enclosure. Cut a hole in it and fill it with substrate that she can burrow in (really small sized coco husk mixed with sphagnum moss or something similar) so that she can spend most of her time there if she prefers, and explore the larger enclosure at her leisure.

I'd also consider making sure that the substrate in the larger enclosure is something she can easily burrow in. Regular coco husk usually doesn't work, but you can mix it with sphagnum moss and more of an earthlike substrate like Reptisoil. If you have leaf litter available, a good layer of that on top would be nice too.

Good luck with this little soul. Hopefully once you get her comfortable and established she'll settle into having a typical colubrid appetite.

I indirectly discovered that while misting in the winter. I can get a good read on all the boas except 1, because they sleep in sky boxes or on the elevated shelf which lets me see posture and movement. A tiny bit of spray takes each of them right out of feed mode. My other guy, the BCA, is the outlier who prefers to burrow in ground level hides. He'll sometimes immediately snap at the air if I wake him up by sliding the doors open. He's the one who gets the dedicated tap training.

The little corn can move around in the coco substrate pretty easily. She's so small she doesn't even need the hides sometimes. Rather, she'll just opt to fully burrow in a corner. There's also a little Forest Floor mixed in and everyone has dried Magnolia leaves layered on top of their substrate. For the little corn, the Magnolia leaves are big enough to serve as full cover. I'll occasionally drop some moss in when I see either of the corns going into shed, but there's none in there now. I'll think about how I might get a mini-enclosure worked into the larger one.

Happy to report we're on a positive trend. 3 successful feedings in a row, all with two pinkies inside enclosure. Thanks again for the help and advice.

Awesome. Things that seem like nothing to us (like scent of rat on their food) can be huge to a tiny corn snake. They're delicate at first, but great pets once they grow a bit- normally easy to feed & docile to handle. And corn snakes are way more tolerant of temperature swings (especially to cooler) than BPs are. :gj: