Finally - 5 years late: An introduction to Cleo, Carra, and Kayla

I have had Cleo, Carra, and Kayla, for 5 years now. They all got along great together, and grew up together, until a few months ago. Cleo began attacking Carra. So, they are now separated. Carra has a couple of battle scars, but nothing major. Everyone is better for the move. Not sure why it happened, but in general, LG's like to be alone. All females, and having grown up together, and in a 4X2' tank, I was told they would have enough space for all. Oh well. They now reside as follows: Kayla and Carra in a 3X2X1' (1/2 a 6X2X1' Boaphile) and Cleo on the other side/half. Carra and Kayla get along fine, and Cleo could care less being on her own.

Kayla is shy, but tolerates handling, and is a voracious eater.

Carra is also shy, but once picked up, is a little more chill. She refuses to use her moist hide. They shed often. I soak her in shed. Still, and sadly, she has some minor toe damage on a couple of toes. The other two use the moist hide like clockwork. I was told they all knew to do it. The damage is old, but I still feel terrible. She seems no worse for the wear, but I still feel awful. I try to take the best care of all my animals. Further hampering the shedding was her issues with being handled when younger. OMG! Have you ever heard an LG squeal/chirp like a bird. Not a happy camper. We have come to terms with each other and she even lets me help with sheds now. Not so much the first year :(.

Cleo will literally come out to say hi and ask to be held 70% of the time I go in her tank, or by it! She is incredibly outgoing and social. She shows zero fear. However, she also picked on her sister. Probably related?

Anyway, I love these little girls. Each has their own personality, they are pretty easy to care for (except for shed issues), and all are beautiful.

I feed 3-4X a week in summer, and a little less in winter, when they do not want to eat as much. I feed a varied diet with Dubai roaches as a staple, and mealworms every 3rd to 4th meal. Occasional phoenix worms or wax worms too, but they love them too much and will refuse their staple diet! I supplement with vitamins 2X a week and Calcium 3X. They also have a little dish in their enclosures with calcium and a little vitamin powder. They know when they need more and will lick it. Fresh water always and temps range from 89-90F hot spot, to 80-82 cool spot, with ambient around 82.


Kayla: Blazing Bell
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../3/3/kayla.jpg

Cleo(patra): Mack Snow Typhoon

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...5/3/3/cleo.jpg

Carra: Sunglow (I love her marble eyes!).
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../3/3/carra.jpg

Nice geckos. Can you handle them or just display animals?

Cleo I can handle all day, if I wanted.

Carra can tolerate a little handling.

Kayla is so/so with handling. Small amounts ok, but but not a lot.

None are aggressive or bite, if that's what you mean. Kayla gets squirmy and I get tired of hand over hand, lol. I don't want to hurt or upset her. Carra can be a little like that too.

Cleo will sit and watch TV.

Awww they are so pretty! I just took in one but he is not in good shape at all and I fear will need to be put down unfortunately, he wasn't properly taken care of and has severe MBD. But I am definitely considering getting one of my own now. Your sunglow is gorgeous.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Awww they are so pretty! I just took in one but he is not in good shape at all and I fear will need to be put down unfortunately, he wasn't properly taken care of and has severe MBD. But I am definitely considering getting one of my own now. Your sunglow is gorgeous.

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UGH! Not good! Yeah, people don't think about proper diet and supplements a lot with lizards in general (or in general I should say). Lizards really suffer a lot and quickly from improper care.

Beardies who do not get supplements AND UVB have similar issues. I hate hearing that, especially with all the information out there now on proper care, and THESE ARE LIVING CREATURES!

Anyway enough of a rant from me.

I do enjoy my LG's and Carra (the sunglow) is very pretty. Marble grey eyes and bright orange after she sheds (she is due in the picture above).

I would recommend keeping them housed separately though. The more I read, the better I think that is. I am lucky that Carra and Kayla have no issues living together. Cleo could care less being one her own though. Would have been brutal, with my space constraints, and having just invested in a 5 tank Boaphile complex, to have to split them all up! Splitting a tank in two was okay, but having a third enclosure somewhere would suck right now.

NEVER put two males together as they will, likely, fight to death. Also, males and females together will lead to babies and probably harassment.

Overall, separate is good, or just get one! I know, who can only get one of anything when it comes to reptiles?

I have to admit that my son’s skink has toe damage, and it was my fault as I was responsible for the skink’s care while my son was away from home for work, and I completely missed a shed. It’s a horrible feeling.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prognathodon

I have to admit that my son’s skink has toe damage, and it was my fault as I was responsible for the skink’s care while my son was away from home for work, and I completely missed a shed. It’s a horrible feeling.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

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Yeah, hard to keep up on LG sheds because they happen a lot and they get rather reclusive during that time. I also thought I was doing enough providing the moist hide. By the time I realized it, it was too late, especially with her aversion to being handled at that point. Took her a while to get more comfortable with that.

Still, ultimately my responsibility, and I do feel terrible.

Thank you for sympathizing!

I am just glad that was the extent my learning curve with Carra and the LG's.

Overall, they are doing fantastic! Nice tails, nice colors, and happy eaters!

Thank you again.

Took some fresh pics of the girls (not great, but okay pics).

Cleo looking good:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...oking_good.jpg


Carra and Kayla:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._and_kayla.jpg

Oh, Carra, those eyes!


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...those_eyes.jpg

oh wow, they are so beautiful !!!

I can't get over how thin their toes are and how thick those tails are !! So different from the Crestie I have.

Leo's have the most beautiful eyes, too, so pretty !!

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Originally Posted by zina10

oh wow, they are so beautiful !!!

I can't get over how thin their toes are and how thick those tails are !! So different from the Crestie I have.

Leo's have the most beautiful eyes, too, so pretty !!

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Thanks Zina10. They are good little geckos!

Got some okay pictures of Cleo tonight. Katie did the honor of holding her while I snapped some shots.

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/EtqudqD.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/S5a8Yec.jpg[/IMG]

I wanted to update on Cleo, Carra, and Kayla, but mostly on Carra and Kayla.

First, they are all doing great. Since I separated Cleo from Carra and Kayla, everyone is doing better. Cleo is her old chill self and loves being queen of her castle (she has an entire 3X2' all to herself). Carra and Kayla are doing great together, as always, and Carra is having much better sheds. I think Cleo used to hog the old moist hide, and Carra didn't want to fight with her, and just had bad sheds instead. I used to soak her all the time to help. Not anymore. She still has a little damage to a couple of toes, but seems no worse for the wear. Everyone is eating well, shedding well, etc. I am very happy.

Secondly, Cleo has always been super outgoing and super friendly. She's a dream to handle. Carra and Kayla, not so much. They tended to get very squirmy and even jumpy and were difficult to hold. I let other people hold Cleo, but not Carra and Kayla.

Well, over the past few weeks, I've been working with Carra and Kayla and slowly building some trust. They would always let me pick them up to move them for cleaning, etc. but it wasn't fun for anyone if I held them longer. There is a noticeable difference between now and three weeks ago. Carra has chilled out a lot, and Kayla a little. Although Kayla will walk from hand to hand quickly, she's not jumpy anymore. Carra, is actually getting pretty calm and will walk from hand to hand, but often just chills in one hand for a minute or so.

I'll keep working with them and update soon.

Last night, I couldn't sleep and wasn't feeling well. I went down to the reptile room as I had forgotten to give the geckos food last night (not a big deal - they usually get every other night, but sometimes every 3 nights, and yesterday was day two).

I fed everyone, Carra ate a couple butterworms, her favorite (and only an occasional treat - they are Gecko crack like wax worms), out of my hand, and Kayla even crawled out of the tank and into my open hand. Working with them is paying off. I think Kayla, with light pink eyes, is particularly sensitive to the light. She doesn't like being out during the day at all. However, last night, she was quite social and calm.

I had fun bonding with them and I think I will work with them more after dark from now on.

Today, I got a video of Carra Vs. A Butterworm. Enjoy!

https://streamable.com/36v4y

Another good update.

Last night, Katie held all three geckos. She loves Cleo and holds her regularly. She's attempted to hold Carra and Kayla before, but it did not go well. They were very squirmy and when Katie tried to gently restrain Carra, she let out her blood curdling squeak that sounds like a baby bird drowning.

Last night, Carra was really chill in her hands and Kayla did pretty well too. Big improvement. I will continue working with them and I think Katie will be spending more time with them as well. Win, win.

Katie even watched them eat mealworms. Katie hates bugs, big time. Almost told me not to move in if I brought food for geckos. She's made her peace with them being in the house - well contained. Plus, I feed mostly mealworms and Dubai Roaches (which Katie makes me call beetles). No smell, no noise, and the geckos love them. Both are good for Leopard Geckos (I do not like crickets in my house or as a staple diet), but equally important to food variety, is gut loading. I pack those critters to the brim with nutritious stuff for my little girls.

Carra shed the other day and I got some cool, and bright pictures, of her in her enclosure with the light on her. Still iPhone pics and not super, but you can get the idea. She glows.

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/V2Eszrb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/Zh2rUpx.jpg[/IMG]

When I bought the original Boaphile tower a year ago, the three geckos were living in a 4X2' and seemingly, doing okay, although Cleo had started some occasional aggression towards Carra. When I moved them into the 6X2' Boaphile, the aggression got significantly worse. So I split the tank and moved Cleo to one side (3X2') and Kayla and Carra stayed on the other side (3X2'). When I bought them, the breeder said that if all females and they grow up together, they should be fine living together. He had said that "six can live in a 4X2', that's huge." Well, the more I read, and the more I observe their behavior, especially during feeding, the more I disagree. I have tried two feeding dishes, but inevitably, there is a spat here and there at the same dish. Additionally, before last shed, I found a little bite mark on Carra again. No bueno.

So, Carra is moving into Figment's tank (3X2') and Figment is moving into a 4X2' (he's big for a corn - over 5ft and 640G). Figment is fine in a 3X2', but for stacking purposes, all the tanks need to be the same size, so big or not, he, Feliz, and Yafe, will all have 4X2' tanks.

I know, three 3X2's, for 3 leopard geckos is insane! I agree. However, I do not want to set up separate small tanks for them. More work and harder to maintain temps etc. The Boaphile tanks are setup and easy to dial in and maintain temps, to say the least. Additionally, if I set them up in smaller tanks, I will want to put bigger things in the 3X2's! Nope. I am good. Let the girls live like queens! Carra, for all she's endured of late, deserves a mansion!

A couple quick things.

I feed the girls mostly Dubai Roaches and mealworms as their staple. I supplement with occasional wax worms, phoenix worms, etc, but they like those a little too much (wax worms = gecko crack) and will hold out for them. So just every once in a while as a treat.

I'd offered superworms in the past as they are easier to digest and last longer than mealworms. I also had a beardie at the time who loved them, so they were on hand. In any event, the girls were not really interested in them.

When I went to the local reptile shop yesterday, they were out of mealworms, had Dubai, which I bought, and it was suggested I try superworms again. A couple go a long way with leopard gecko and it can't hurt to add a third component to their diet.

Well, today, I offered Cleo and Carra (Kayla hates the light - very light red eyes do not do well during the day and she generally freaks out when not in a hide) and I was 2 for 2! They each ate one and loved them! I'll try them in their dishes tonight and for Kayla too.

Also, I had Cleo out for a few minutes today for bonding time. All the snakes downstairs, except for Figment, ate, so bonding options were limited, and I usually take Cleo out 2X a week. This seemed like an excellent time. I took a video (not a great video as I was moving the camera lot as Cleo moved) to show how chill Cleo is. Today she was actually pretty revved up for her. See below.

Video link to Cleo, the chillest gecko I know: https://streamable.com/lagut

The new Boaphile tanks came this week. Everything got set up and dialed in and Figment got moved into his 4X2' yesterday. A thorough cleaning, and decorating it like her old tank with Kayla, and Carra got moved into her new "forever" home.

Now Carra, Kayla, and Cleo, each have a 3X2' enclosure in the 6X2' boaphile tower. They are living like Queens!

Carra and Kayla didn't seem to miss each other much and each happily gobbled down some Dubai Roaches last night. However, this time, there was no arguing over who got which one!

I am glad everyone has their own digs and is happy now! Glad I was able to do that for them.

Very cool. Never thought I'd be learning about other reptiles so is an added bonus!

Beautiful & probably the healthiest looking LGs I've ever seen, :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Beautiful & probably the healthiest looking LGs I've ever seen, :gj:

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Sorry for the late response.

Bogertophis, you know I do my best to keep all my animals happy and healthy. Still, that means a lot!

Carra has a few bad toes from poor sheds because Cleo was being a bully and hogging the moist hide. Since I moved her, she's had no issues, and for what's it worth, seems no worse for the wear. I still feel really bad. I should have gone with instinct and not listened to the breeder.

I can't go back, but I can move forward. They are all thrilled to have their own digs, and 3X2' tanks at that! Everyone is doing really well on their own and seem really happy. I am glad I had the space to give them all what they needed.

Cleo has this routine where she begs for food. She goes totally nuts when I shake the bug dish around with the calcium (and often vitamins as well).

Last night I got video of the whole thing. It's pretty funny.

The video is bad because I have on hand to film leaving one hand to feed and unlock and open the tank and keep Cleo in her tank, etc.

However, the commentary is ok, if I can say so myself.

Enjoy.

Video of Cleo going Coo-coo for Roaches! https://streamable.com/dptl3

Kayla and Carra are getting so much better with handling, especially at night. I spent some time with them last night and Carra ate from my hand while out, Kayla ate a wax worm when I put it down in front of her and she had calmed a bit, and Cleo, well.......


Cleo has always been a social butterfly. She loves being out and chills etc. She is so chill that I haven't been handling her at much, especially at night, because she will come out happily during the day.

Well, I took Cleo out to hand feed her a wax worm and she seems more interested in my fingers than anything! FOOD? FOOD? FOOD? FOR ME???? NO! My finger!

I came away unscathed as she's predictable and it's just a food response. However, I plan to handle her more at night and not just feed her.

Below is a video of her eating a wax worm from my hand and then thinking FOOOOOOOD! FINGERS????????? Fingers Food?

https://vimeo.com/322219567

"Mmm! I've heard of parties with 'finger foods'...is it...is it this? Hold still! Come back...?" :rofl:

Dave, she's adorable! -as if you didn't know? ;)

The Geckos have been doing fine, except for Cleo. She had a scab or some beginnings of mouth rot on her top lip. I gently removed it with a q-tip as she didn't seem to want to eat. That didn't seem to bother her, and after, she still fasted.

Nothing serious, but they tend to fast certain times of the year, and that's okay. Kayla fasted for about a month and started eating again recently, but not exactly devouring her food, but maintaining weight. Carra has been pretty consistently eating like a pig, but also took a week or so off a month or so ago. Cleo on the other hand, has not really been eating for a couple of months. She will occasionally pick and there is a little poop now and again. She's drinking and leaves urine/urate, and has not lost any dramatic weight at all and still has a fat tail.

If offered, the only thing I could get her to eat was wax worms, but I feed those sparingly as they are fatty and Gecko Crack!

I offered canned crickets the other day, which Carra loves when wiggled on tongs, and Cleo seemed interested, but didn't take.

As a final resort to try to get her to eat, I offered her a Pro Bugs Eco Fresh Grasshopper. They are expensive, but fresh sealed and both Frank and Toref like them. I shook it on my fingers and she tasted it with her tongue, and then grabbed and devoured one today.

She does not seem egg bound and again, has a fat tail and seem fine otherwise. She would always eat the wax worms. Not sure if she's just picky in her old age (7 years), or what, but she loved that grasshopper. I ordered some more and a few other Pro Bugs and canned items. Maybe variety is what she needs, or something different? Dubai and mealworms are doing it for her right now.

Anyway, I am relieved, although I was never too worried. I also wanted others to know there are options out there.

I would not count on LG's eating canned/fresh sealed insects as a regular diet. They like the movement usually. However, it can be a nice supplement. Toref (monitor) and Frank (BTS) are both predators and scavengers and eat anything. LG's and other geckos tend to go on movement and like live. Ferry (Chewie), who loves insects of all kinds, and eats powder/gel diet, will not touch canned or fresh sealed insects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

The Geckos have been doing fine, except for Cleo. She had a scab or some beginnings of mouth rot on her top lip. I gently removed it with a q-tip as she didn't seem to want to eat. That didn't seem to bother her, and after, she still fasted.

Nothing serious, but they tend to fast certain times of the year, and that's okay. Kayla fasted for about a month and started eating again recently, but not exactly devouring her food, but maintaining weight. Carra has been pretty consistently eating like a pig, but also took a week or so off a month or so ago. Cleo on the other hand, has not really been eating for a couple of months. She will occasionally pick and there is a little poop now and again. She's drinking and leaves urine/urate, and has not lost any dramatic weight at all and still has a fat tail.

If offered, the only thing I could get her to eat was wax worms, but I feed those sparingly as they are fatty and Gecko Crack!

I offered canned crickets the other day, which Carra loves when wiggled on tongs, and Cleo seemed interested, but didn't take.

As a final resort to try to get her to eat, I offered her a Pro Bugs Eco Fresh Grasshopper. They are expensive, but fresh sealed and both Frank and Toref like them. I shook it on my fingers and she tasted it with her tongue, and then grabbed and devoured one today.

She does not seem egg bound and again, has a fat tail and seem fine otherwise. She would always eat the wax worms. Not sure if she's just picky in her old age (7 years), or what, but she loved that grasshopper. I ordered some more and a few other Pro Bugs and canned items. Maybe variety is what she needs, or something different? Dubai and mealworms are doing it for her right now.

Anyway, I am relieved, although I was never too worried. I also wanted others to know there are options out there.

I would not count on LG's eating canned/fresh sealed insects as a regular diet. They like the movement usually. However, it can be a nice supplement. Toref (monitor) and Frank (BTS) are both predators and scavengers and eat anything. LG's and other geckos tend to go on movement and like live. Ferry (Chewie), who loves insects of all kinds, and eats powder/gel diet, will not touch canned or fresh sealed insects.

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I spoke too soon. Cleo threw up the grasshopper. Not the first time she's thrown up a big meal, but I am frustrated.

I ordered an assortment of life insects including hornworms, phoenix worms, and wax worms. I also ordered nutribac to dust them with. Let's see if I can get her back to eating.

In the meantime, I am not too worried, still, as she has yet to lose and substantial weight, and Kayla is on and then off food of late as well. Carra is the only one devouring anything I put in front of her.

I'll keep everyone in the loop.

I hope Cleo gets going for you...these little LGs can be frustrating when they don't eat. My experience with them is too limited to be of help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I hope Cleo gets going for you...these little LGs can be frustrating when they don't eat. My experience with them is too limited to be of help.

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Thank you. She’s still being very social and inquisitive. She is acting fine.

I’ve had them for 6 or 7 years now. Unless they lose weight I don’t worry too much. Even if they do, they usually start eating before losing body weight (just tail weight).

Anyway, if she was going to hack up anything, I'm not surprised it was a grasshopper. The large legs on grasshoppers (also on large crickets) are very hard to
digest & can plug up lizards that eat them (& keep them down). That's what happened to the bearded dragon I rescued many years ago...he was starved & dying
when he was dumped on me, after being fed only crickets & becoming constipated from the large back legs he couldn't digest. And he was much bigger than an LG.

I pulled him thru though...oral doses of mineral oil per my vet, plus luke-warm water soaks in my bathtub- my hunch that proved to be spot on, both helped him
clear his constipation & be able to eat again, after which he gained & did very well. But during his treatment, he got very spoiled eating little dabs of baby food, LOL! That kept him going just enough without overloading his GI tract. Long after he was eating normal dragon "salads" he saw me eating ice cream...& apparently thought it looked enough like the baby food he still remembered that he tried to jump into my bowl, hahaha! Dragons are goofy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Anyway, if she was going to hack up anything, I'm not surprised it was a grasshopper. The large legs on grasshoppers (also on large crickets) are very hard to
digest & can plug up lizards that eat them (& keep them down). That's what happened to the bearded dragon I rescued many years ago...he was starved & dying
when he was dumped on me, after being fed only crickets & becoming constipated from the large back legs he couldn't digest. And he was much bigger than an LG.

I pulled him thru though...oral doses of mineral oil per my vet, plus luke-warm water soaks in my bathtub- my hunch that proved to be spot on, both helped him
clear his constipation & be able to eat again, after which he gained & did very well. But during his treatment, he got very spoiled eating little dabs of baby food, LOL! That kept him going just enough without overloading his GI tract. Long after he was eating normal dragon "salads" he saw me eating ice cream...& apparently thought it looked enough like the baby food he still remembered that he tried to jump into my bowl, hahaha! Dragons are goofy!

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Cleo and Kayla have a history of not holding down big meals - super worms even sometimes. Carra can eat anything and with zero issue. She ate canned crickets and a grasshopper and digested it fine. I think it depends on the animal. Remember though, LG's are insectivores/carnivores. Beardies are omnivorous. LG's cannot eat as much, but they can handle more chitin in their diets than beardies can. Toref (dwarf monitor) can hold down anything! Grasshoppers, mice with bones, crickets, etc. Again, a pure carnivore.

I also have good news. I got Cleo to eat today. She had 3 Hornworms and loved them, and a wax worm. All were coated in Nutribac in case her stomach is bothering her. I think it's just the time of year and she's being picky. Either way, I am glad I got some easily digestible food into her, with nutribac, and she held it all down. This proves to me that she's probably just being picky and it's not an issue with her mouth, etc. Kayla has been spotty lately too. Maybe it's just the time of year. Carra, of course, continues to devour anything near her. This might get Cleo started, but even if I've found a few items she likes and will eat sometimes, and she's not losing weight, we are on the right track.

https://vimeo.com/361409112

I love the way she sees food & licks her lips while approaching. :rofl: Even then she still pokes & tests it before grabbing...that's just adorable! Glad her appetite
has returned.

Cleo continues to gobble down hornworms. She does not seem to have the zest she used to when eating. I am unsure whether that's because she isn't really interested in food right now, but likes the hornworms, and they don't move fast, or if something else is going on.

I plan to get a poop sample to the vet ASAP, but she hasn't had a good poop since she started eating again earlier this week. Some urine and urate, and I tiny bit of poop, but I am hoping for something I can send in.

I hope you get some answers, & that it's nothing really wrong.

More good news. I checked on Cleo today and she was eating her mealworms. I only put three in there as she also had two big hornworms last night, but sure enough 2 mealworms gone. I offered Dubai tonight and we will see. However, the mealworms are a big step. She has always liked them, and although she loves hornworms and wax worms, it's good she's eating her staple, or at least part of it. She has always eaten mealworms and Dubai as her main diet.

Anyway, I do not want to jinx it and still plan on sending in a poop sample, but I thought it was a good sign and wanted to share.

Good news! Maybe she had a stomach "bug" & has self-cured? Who knows?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Good news! Maybe she had a stomach "bug" & has self-cured? Who knows?

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I few thoughts.

1. I did give her some Nutribac last week. Maybe that helped?

2. She has a big fat tail and I would not want her gaining any more weight. I've heard they are somewhat aware of that, and can fast when they don't need food.

3. Maybe something did bother her, but she didn't eat for long enough that her stomach shrunk? Now that she's eating, she's also getting hungry again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

I few thoughts.

1. I did give her some Nutribac last week. Maybe that helped?

2. She has a big fat tail and I would not want her gaining any more weight. I've heard they are somewhat aware of that, and can fast when they don't need food.

3. Maybe something did bother her, but she didn't eat for long enough that her stomach shrunk? Now that she's eating, she's also getting hungry again?

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Let us know when she tells you which one it is? ;)

I won't say she's pounding food, but Cleo is definitely eating again. 4 mealworms in the other day and 1 mealworm left yesterday. Last night I put in Dubai and mealworms and we will see. She seems more interested in the mealworms of late. That's fine. They are both gut loaded and I add calcium 3X a week and vitamins 1X a week.

Cleo seems back to her old self.

She's wiggling her tail in excitement when I put food in and goes right after it. She's preferring mealworms right now, but is eating Dubai roaches as well. Either is fine. I have a ready supply of both and gut load both and calcium 3X a week and vitamins 1X.

She looks great and is still a pleasure. Most of the time, she comes out to see me when I open the enclosure.

I am relieved.

As many of you know, we lost Kayla recently. Unclear on what happened, but found her dead after seemingly being normal. She was 7 1/2 years old and I'd had her 7 years.

The other two Leopard Geckos seem absolutely fine, as does everyone else, and aside from a waiting for Carra and Cleo to start eating again (they both shed about the same time), all has been good.

I took some pictures of the two of them today and thought I'd post.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/YCLMcve.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/AMTcj2H.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/Nf1imeR.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/dPD90CL.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/TiMXjjS.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/Z9trwck.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/YeSBjsh.jpg

Here's another video of Cleo vs. a Hornworm, her favorite.

Look at her cheeks "pulsing" when she sees it and gets excited.

https://vimeo.com/429843992

Don't remember if I've written about this before, but Cleo has been slowing down regarding eating. She really doesn't want Dubai anymore, and was eating mealworms, but only a little out of her dish. Her weight is good and she gets the occasional hornworm or wax worm, but her hunting skills have diminished. I am not sure what's going on, but my best guess is/was eyesight issues. She still likes coming out and saying hello when I open the tank (her MO most of the time) and seems totally chill when I hold her etc. It's only with eating.

About a year ago, when didn't eat for a bit, I noticed what looked like potential mouth rot on the sides of her mouth. When I went to clean it (with a q-tip), the whole item, which looked like a scab, came out of her mouth at once. It went roof of mouth (a little towards the front) and across to both sides and impacted her being able to close her mouth a little on the sides. Since then, I've noticed it 4 more times, all seemingly after or soon after a shed. Not sure if it's related or not. However, she was eating fine once I popped that scab like thing out and consistently.

I guess it could be a calcified something, but really, it just seems like a scab and comes right out and she goes on for months with no issues after.

Anyway, come to the past month and she has really slowed down eating and for longer than usual. Last week I tried hand feeding her mealworms, but her aim isn't great, although she showed interest, and ate a few. If I put a mealworm down, she tries to smell/taste it and then eat it, but it often gets away before she can.

Today, I bought some rubber tipped feeding tongs/tweezers. BAM - she quickly gobbled down a few mealworms off the tongs. Again, she missed a bit, but seemed enthusiastic and happily ate once she got a piece of the mealworm in her mouth.

I mentioned the mouth thing for the sake of not leaving anything out, but I don't think that's the root cause.

Could she just be slowing down with age (she's 8 and we lost her adopted sister Kayla early last year suddenly - they were within a month of each other in age)? Could it be an eyesight issue (she is albino with red eyes and I've heard they can have more eyesight issues than non-albinos - but don't know if that is true)? Does it matter?

She's eating now and I think she will continue to eat off the tongs. She gets calcium and vitamins (less often) on her food as needed and will get more than just mealworms as a treat as mentioned above. I think her diet is good and most importantly, all her food items are gut loaded with quality and diverse food.

Just want to know if anyone thinks I should be worried, or just assume she needs a little extra love now, and feed her off the tongs and let it be.

My experience & knowledge of these critters is pretty limited, but it concerns me that the "mouth thing" recurs. 5 times is a lot, IMO, especially combined with eating difficulties. Maybe her mouth hurts? I don't know what age these guys are getting "old" & slowing down would be "normal". I've heard the same thing about albino vision & like you, not sure whether it's all that true.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

My experience & knowledge of these critters is pretty limited, but it concerns me that the "mouth thing" recurs. 5 times is a lot, IMO, especially combined with eating difficulties. Maybe her mouth hurts? I don't know what age these guys are getting "old" & slowing down would be "normal". I've heard the same thing about albino vision & like you, not sure whether it's all that true.

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I agree the mouth thing would be concerning, except she eats with it most of the time, so there may not be a correlation there. Additionally, within 30 seconds of removing it, she will accept food. So I can't imagine it hurts her that much. If anything, it's a relief as soon as it's out.

Not trying to argue Boger, just thinking out loud here.

My experience with mouth rot is limited to a very old Beardie who ate with it, but I treated and eradicated it anyway with a few weeks of injections and daily medication rubs in the mouth/gums. Lost him soon after to pancreatitis. RIP George.

Anyway, not sure what else could be causing the mouth thing, except some shed remnants. As mentioned, it seems to occur right after sheds, when it does.

Further, she eats enthusiastically when she can catch the food or I feed her. If her mouth hurt, wouldn't she avoid eating?

As with you, my experience with Leopard Geckos is limited. I know about them through keeping Cleo, Carra, and Kayla (RIP). I did a lot of research before I got them and since, but not sure about the having issues hunting. comes from.

After writing this, I googled mouth issues with Leopard Geckos.

This picture looks like what I've seen in Cleo's mouth, but about 10X worse. As soon as I notice it all I get it out, but I've never seen it anywhere near this bad with her. AGAIN - to be clear, this is not Cleo, but another LG with greatly amplified symptoms.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...7xvy4tqf31.jpg

Reddit says it's mouth rot caused by weekend immune system. Any thoughts on that? Can age weaken an immune system enough to cause it? Do you think this is mouth rot? Can you scrape mouth rot away? Or, yes, most of it, but it comes back - hence it coming back. Could it be something else - like an irritation? He cage is spotless and cleaned regularly and I use paper as substrate so no real room for bacteria to grow. Unless it's just her immune system not being able to fight basic stuff.

Obvisouly, I don't want her to be in pain and if she needs treatment, will definitely do it. I guess I didn't think much about it because it comes out easy and goes away for a while. Hmmmmm - any thoughts?

You all know I want what's best for her. I just didn't think this was mouth rot or something serious. If I am being naive here, please let me know.

EDIT: I checked my records. It started last year and has happened 3X - about every 5 months.

From your description, yes, I think it's "mouth rot"- an infection that could also end up being systemic* & causing the rest of the symptoms that you described, I'm pretty sure, so yeah, I think the vet would be a good idea. Scraping it away won't cure it, as far as I know. Older humans have weaker immune systems, so I assume the same thing holds true for our scaly pals. A weakened immune system is more prone to bacterial & viral infections. *And just so you follow my line of reasoning here: these days doctors remind us (humans) about the link between oral health & heart disease & other systemic issues. As far as whether or not mouth discomfort would stop her from eating, I know that when I've had a toothache, I still got hungry enough to eat no matter what- some things take precedence. ;)

I am on it. I'll reach out to the vet and see what we can do.

Feel really dumb here. With the limited experience I had with mouth rot, this seemed nothing like it.

Darn!

Thank you Boger, I'll report back ASAP.

I'm curious as to what all the vet will do for this- these little LEs aren't the easiest creatures to treat, but I hope they can help. Like anything else, maybe get a culture & antibiotic?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm curious as to what all the vet will do for this- these little LEs aren't the easiest creatures to treat, but I hope they can help. Like anything else, maybe get a culture & antibiotic?

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Yeah, me too. Also vet is 1 1/2 hours away in good weather and we are expecting storms pretty much all week. Also, COVID. I’ll call and see what’s up.

I’ll keep everyone posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

Yeah, me too. Also vet is 1 1/2 hours away in good weather and we are expecting storms pretty much all week. Also, COVID. I’ll call and see what’s up.

I’ll keep everyone posted.

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It has waited this long, so it's not what I'd call an emergency- ie. wait until safe weather to travel. But I'd call & see if there's anything you can try in the meantime?

It feels like the North Pole right now where I am- & it's never supposed to be this cold here! :confusd: Snowing most of this week too...not the time to travel. Stay safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It has waited this long, so it's not what I'd call an emergency- ie. wait until safe weather to travel. But I'd call & see if there's anything you can try in the meantime?

It feels like the North Pole right now where I am- & it's never supposed to be this cold here! :confusd: Snowing most of this week too...not the time to travel. Stay safe.

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Yeah, the plan is call and see if there's something I should do in the meantime, then schedule a visit for safer weather.

Thank you again Boger!