Sulfur = Fire

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

How would that be misleading? If you import a snake that proves genetic, name it the purple dragon, and sell them all day long. I'd be interested in a new line of BEL complex snake like that.

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Like I said. If I did NOT prove it genetic and just sold the offspring that looked close or the same. That would be the same situation as this.

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

i agree, if your serious about this hobby and spend $1,500 on a morph and get burned or buy the same morph as another one for less, its your fault you need to reaserch before purchasing, or deciede that your ok paying more for somthing potentilly different

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This statement is not what I believe our hobby is about. We need to cut misleading information! You cant say oh you didn't know it was unproven and now own a snake you could have purchased cheaper. This is the whole point of this thread. Why would you want people to be uneducated on animals due to misleading information? It just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

I have done alot of research on fires and received information from Davies including pictures that show color changes in continued breeding. The fact that they may be different lines makes them no different. They are still the same morph.

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Davies was one of the reasons a name was given to this morph. He told me there is no way they are fires they don't even look close. As far as waiting for a super to be produced before selling them or releasing info, well that's just not the norm in this hobby/business.

Dave might be able to elaborate on this more, but I believe someone told him the name Fire had been trademarked and he couldn't use it. I personally think they were full of it, but why bother making people mad.

One last thing that's been irking me. Can we all get on the same page with the spelling, it's 'Sulfur'. I notice it with Mojave/Mohave a lot as well.

Envy your new site is going to be Sulfurpythons.com does that make you biased against the name? LOL

Eric

To me sulfur is just as much not proven to be the same as fire as it is not proven to be different. Why should the burden of proof be more on one side of the argument than the other? When sulfur was first named and fires where high dollar you better believe fire owners would have been all over anyone calling sulfurs fires.

The recent evidence that the homozygous sulfur looks like the homozygous fire helps make the case that they might be the same but even now if the sulfur line name was to be changed to fire it could well prove to be the misleading info. We may yet confirm subtle differences mentioned here or maybe even incompatibility. Even once the two are bred together and if they prove compatible we could still have an allele situation and might never be able to prove one way or the other. The debate still goes on for lesser vs. butter.

If the original sulfur line was held until fully understood (and I’m not sure that is even possible without genetic mapping) we would all know less about it than we do now. There would be fewer neat combos out there, and other breeders would still be waiting years to get to work with them. Sure we should do our best to avoid confusion but I would argue that letting other breeders work with this line so that they can provide first hand opinions and making the morph a public item of discussion will do more for getting clarity sooner than keeping the project until all questions are answered. What if the originator comes to the wrong conclusion after keeping the morph from the public for years and years while the price of fires drops to where there is no longer great resistance to calling the new line fire? A lot of time would have been wasted and fewer people would be interested in working to confirm the originator’s answers. The hobby would have largely passed the potential new line/morph by.

I think benefits sharing the opportunity to work with a new line/possible new morph with other breeders outweighs any short term potential for confusion for the industry. If lesser and butter where still being held by the originators while they sorted out if they are exactly the same or not (or the platy issue) think of all the current lesser owners who wouldn't have that morph to enjoy.

Eric, I dont hold a bias against the name snake or you by any means. I chose the name sulfur pythons because there's so many ball morphs that are intense yellow. Plus I made a really cool logo lol. I really want the super to prove to be different somewhere along the line, it's another subtle morph that may have something awesome hiding in there if it proves to be different. Like randy said I guess only time will tell. Randy had alot of good points! If sulfur's prove out I will work with them no doubt.

Envy, I was just playing with the biased thing. Just wanted to make sure you knew that as it's easy for things to be misconstrued in text.

Here is a pic I took of the original Sulfur female. I think most of us know Dave is a little lacking in the photography skills dept.;) so I thought I'd throw this up here. I personally hate this pic because of the stuck shed but it's the only one I have. Pictured with her is a normal, it looks really dark but it's just your average normal, and a really nice Mojave het hypo. I'm hoping to hatch some Hypo Sulfurs this coming season, which will be another cross we can compare with the fire equivalent.

Eric

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...snakes_073.jpg

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

Joe,

Spot on! This is how I view the situation as well. Unfortunately the original breeder let the project leak before any of this had been done. I feel it is ethical to refer to this as a fire from both the sulfur and Flame Hypo standpoint! At this point in time everything is the same. I believe the Flame Hypo has been bred with the Davies fire. When we can prove that the sulfur is indeed it's own mutation or an allele of the fire we then can add extra tags to the baggage.

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I remember hearing somewhere that Amir's flame hypo's make black-eyed lucy's WITHOUT the yellow splotching. Don't know if it's true or not, but that would be a difference I'd be willing to pay for.

As far as the sulfur/fire naming thing, this thread just goes to show ya that you can't please everyone all the time. It's been mentioned here already, but the sulfur got it's name because of the fact that everyone was giving him grief over saying it was probably a fire.

Not only are there Amir's "flame hypo" line, NERD has a co-dom hypo line as well as another line that Wilbanks has that is compatible with the fires.

I really think that you are looking at this all wrong Envy. I know a lot of the background on the fire line and I can tell you that some people would not have been very happy about the "sulfur" being called a fire. I may be wrong, but I do not believe the name "sulfur" was coined until after a breeding and resulting offspring showed that it was genetic.
I would rather have 50 names to name a particular morph so that I know exactly what lines I have in there.
I have read this entire thread and I am still lost in your "proof" lines. The Graziani cinny and other lines were sold as such before it was proven that there was a super. Are you saying that anyone that feels that have a new morph should hold onto the progeny year after year waiting to try to prove a super?
That is why animals are sold as "dom, possibly co-dom".

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Here is the thread with pictures: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...799#post902799

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WOW! that snake is SMOKING!!

There needs to be a snake committee so this can stop...all these morphs that are pretty much the same but have variations in price..ugh

Kinda the reason why I just got an RTB.