Female Woma Problem :-(

[Pals BP]

Hello,

I have not been on the forums in a while and have had a lot of life changes over the past couple years...for the best, but I have also been staying very busy. However, this really bothers me and I hope someone may be able to shed some light on what may have happened or if it should just be chalked up to a fluke. I currently have the collection of boas and balls in winter temps and the hot spot gets about 84 during the day and turns off at night for an ambient temp in the mid 70s when the heat is off. I fed this Monday and everything seemed to be going great. Then when I got home Wednesday night, a very strong, pungent odor knocked me back and it was coming from the snake room. I immediately went to investigate and saw the issue, my young female woma ball python had the rat sticking half way out of her mouth, the newspaper had a large wet spot from the regurge, and she was dead. She seemed to be doing very well and took the weaned rat with no issues just a couple days prior, so I do not understand what may have caused this. Has anyone had a similar experience that would be willing to share their story with some possible causes? Here are a couple pictures of what I came home to.





Thank you

[m3gz]

I'm so sorry for your loss T~T

[Seven-Thirty]

That's too cold for my liking personally. 84 during the day is a bit on the colder end and a complete ambiant of mid-70's at night when the hotspot turns off is just way too cold in general without a hot spot imo. It also looks like she died before even swallowing it or was in the process of regurging it and somwthing went wrong. Could just be a random freak accident or something more but there's nothing that can be done now. Personally i would raise temps if i were you and keep the hotspot on 24/7.

[Pals BP]

I'm so sorry for your loss T~T

Thanks for the kind words.

That's too cold for my liking personally. 84 during the day is a bit on the colder end and a complete ambiant of mid-70's at night when the hotspot turns off is just way too cold in general without a hot spot imo. It also looks like she died before even swallowing it or was in the process of regurging it and somwthing went wrong. Could just be a random freak accident or something more but there's nothing that can be done now. Personally i would raise temps if i were you and keep the hotspot on 24/7.

She definitely finished the meal and it was completely swallowed, as I checked up on them a couple hours after feeding and everything looked great. I have grown a decent collection of boas and ball pythons using seasonal cycling for years with no issues, so I am really perplexed at what caused this. The boas and ball pythons are in the same room right now and many keepers/breeders cycle them the same each season. It discusses the winter cycle in The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley on page 86-87. I have also referred to The Complete Boa Constrictor by Vin Russo, a respected keeper and breeder. I have kept the temp cycle the same for adult and young snakes, as many keeper/breeders do with success, so I would rather not change this if I cannot determine this to be the issue. Within a month, I will go back to the summer cycle and keep the heat on 24 hours a day with a hot spot around 90. However, I acclimate back to this slow and give them time to adjust between the winter and summer temps.

However, I am here to learn. I would like to know your reasoning behind raising the temps back up and the sources you referenced to come to this conclusion.

[Chloe]

She's not a breed able size. Winter cycling I believe is only for adults. It helps stimulate follicle growth. She looks like a smaller snake. I personally don't cycle at all. I'd rather keep them warm, especially during feeding to ensure proper digestion. I keep my hotspot at 88 with a low of 80. If the meal was too big, it could have been a failed regurge. I lost a rosy boa due to a meal that was too big and a regurge.


That being said, I am terribly sorry for your loss. There's a lot of factors that could have caused this.

[Seven-Thirty]

I have not read that book but mid-70's without a hot spot is way too cold at night. Even if you are doing a night drop, you should still have a hot spot of at least 82-84 at the minimum with an ambiant of mid-70's. (If you desire) See the ambiant isn't too cold in general but it is too cold if there's no hot spot at all.

As for sources, this is more of standard husbandry practices but I know of places where night drops are referenced so yeah.

http://ballpython.ca/breeding/

https://youtu.be/GrwxTrY5JZE?t=3m40s

[bcr229]

"Winter cycling" is not required for breeding either ball pythons or boas and as you've just discovered it causes problems, including increased likelihood of RI's. Also if you're going to drop temps then the animals should be fasting not eating as those temps are too low for proper digestion.

I do cycle my adult breeder BRB's and Dums as it's required for successful follicle growth and breeding. They get a half-size meal once a month during this time and I'll usually bump up their heat slightly for a week afterward before dropping it back down and re-introducing the male to the female. I don't cycle juveniles and non-breeders ever.

[Pals BP]

Thanks for the information everyone. Sorry if I came off a little rude in my last post, this is just hard for me to handle, as she was a nice woma ball. I know there are people on both sides of the winter cycle method. I have been using this to grow out my snakes with no apparent issues, possibly until now. I cut way down on feeding during the winter and it has been a couple months since she has eaten. So maybe low temps plus a meal that was a little too big may have been the culprit. I have had no respiratory infections since I have been in the hobby. This particular ball python had a "wobble" that many womas have (similar to spider), so maybe this played a role too. I will never know for sure though.

Thanks again

[Pals BP]

Thanks for the input regarding this issue. I have now lost a Belem Brazil BCC and am pretty upset. I have had this particular boa for 5 years and have had no issues until he just died suddenly. I am now thinking this is a feeder rodent issue and I may have a bad batch of rodents on my hands. I am definitely cleaning out the chest freezer and ordering all new feeder rodents. What do you guys use for a reliable and clean source for your feeders?

Thanks

[zina10]

Sorry for your loss !! Its always difficult to loose a beloved animal.

I have to agree with others though, to cold to digest a rather large meal. It doesn't matter what others do or how long it worked out, it is risky.
Whether the animal is being tricked into thinking its winter or not, those temps simply don't support digestion. It slows it down so much that the rodents begins to rott before it is broken down sufficiently. Gases are released and the animal bloats. They try to regurge, but that in itself is terribly stressful for the animal and sometimes something inside bursts before they can get rid of the offending (and bloated) meal.

2 days into digestion, that rat should have looked far broken down, instead it looks basically un damaged.

Perhaps other animals did ok, but I think it was luck. In the wild they instinctively fast when its to cold for digestion. Or they find a "sunny" spot during the day where the heat goes up quite a bit, even though its "winter". In captivity they do not have these options.

If I were to do a "season" I would only do it for adults (for breeding) and I wouldn't feed during these cold temps.

I know you don't agree, but you did ask for thoughts and opinions...

I'm sorry to hear you lost another animal. Could it be due to the feeders ? It may, but haven't you fed others with these rodents? Did the rodents look/smell ANY different ?

My thoughts are that perhaps since the last feeding the ambient possibly went down just a few more degrees then it normally was ? At these colder temps it wouldn't take much to disrupt digestion enough to cause severe issues. They don't all try to or are able to regurge.

Anyway, its a thought.