Wants vs Needs

[mds695]

First off, very new to the hobby. So my experiences are very limited. Take it all with a grain of salt. I love these little guys and want nothing but the best for them. But I have struggled in the first couple months of keeping to figure what is best in terms of enclosure size etc. I am a firm believer in giving an animal everything it wants, not just what it needs. So long as its not detrimental to its health (ie a golden retriever with free choice food). The current general recommendation for enclosure size seems to be 4x2x2. However I struggle to find a reason that this is actually what they want. Now I am sure every animal is different. BUT, these little guys spend 90+percent of their time in the tightest spot they can possible get into. They may move to a cooler area when they're warm, I've seen that regularly. But what I haven't seen is any "exploration." It's one spot to the next along the path of least resistance. I feel if they only had to move 6" to cool off, they wouldn't travel 4' to achieve the same thing. Same with basking behaviour. Would they move across the enclosure and climb a structure if they could achieve the same thing by simply crawling out of their hide? Would they travel 100 yards to a new termite mound if there was a healthy supply of food where they currently were residing? In nature they appear to live and eat in one location until the food runs out. If they get cold they may crawl to the entrance of their burrow to warm up. When the food supply dries up they move along to the next spot. But they don't want to move away from a secure location with an adequate food supply. They will if the need to, but I doubt they WANT to. So, given the choice, would a snake choose a 4x2x2 or a FB70 with the exact same parameters (temps, hides, and food supply)?

[Armiyana]

For BPs... it really depends on the individual snake. I have one female I absolutely cannot keep outside of a tub. She'll stress out and strike at the glass or acrylic any time she sees something move.
I had a male who would regularly come out in the evening and do a brief wander. Usually 3-4 nights a week if he wasn't in a shed cycle. Climbing, doing the corner dance...just fun to watch.

I think the easiest way to get started is a smaller tub setup with a hatchling. From there, you can learn the habits and get the feeding schedule down.... the baby gets used to all the strange scents and sounds. If it's a more outgoing and curious baby and not as balled up during outings after they're settled.... consider trying a larger setup. If they're still very shy, they may be the type that does better with a dark tub.

It's really refreshing to see someone who is more concerned about the actual wants and needs of the animal over their personal ones.... so thank you for that!
I know of someone who actually keeps a motion activated camera set up with their snake so they can see what they get up to at night. Maybe something to consider for yours as well! Get an idea of how comfortable and active they are,
I know once I finally get the okay and clearance for a larger display setup again, that's what I'm planning on doing with mine. Hahah.

[Argentum]

My young female is very active and curious if I take her out and handle her... or at least, that's what it looks like. I'm pretty sure she's just curious where her houses went and wants to go back to them. She's one that just wants to move a few inches from warm to cool and back again, so she's in a dimly lit tub with hides directly facing each other. She comes out for a drink of water, but other than that... she even prefers to poop and shed inside her hides. Then she hangs out inside the opposite one until I clean it up so she can switch back and forth again. My male, however, is almost always hanging out where he has a view of what's going on outside the enclosure, or crammed in behind his warm hide. He doesn't want to come out of the enclosure or go into the hide, but he does want to see what's going on, it seems. He has an enclosure that's dark on the warm side, and light on the cool side, with a clear view to see out. His warm-side hide is weighted so he can feel secure squeezing in behind it and doesn't push it out of place. Simple concessions to what they like. I guess it is, indeed, like all other animals; No two want exactly the same thing, whether it's snakes, horses, birds, humans, fish, cats, dogs or rodents. I can't speak for badgers. Never had one. I've been told that a snake needs enough room to stretch out straight. I've never seen a live snake stretch itself out straight voluntarily, so I'm not sure about that.

[Homebody]

First off, very new to the hobby. So my experiences are very limited. Take it all with a grain of salt. I love these little guys and want nothing but the best for them. But I have struggled in the first couple months of keeping to figure what is best in terms of enclosure size etc. I am a firm believer in giving an animal everything it wants, not just what it needs. So long as its not detrimental to its health (ie a golden retriever with free choice food). The current general recommendation for enclosure size seems to be 4x2x2. However I struggle to find a reason that this is actually what they want. Now I am sure every animal is different. BUT, these little guys spend 90+percent of their time in the tightest spot they can possible get into. They may move to a cooler area when they're warm, I've seen that regularly. But what I haven't seen is any "exploration." It's one spot to the next along the path of least resistance. I feel if they only had to move 6" to cool off, they wouldn't travel 4' to achieve the same thing. Same with basking behaviour. Would they move across the enclosure and climb a structure if they could achieve the same thing by simply crawling out of their hide? Would they travel 100 yards to a new termite mound if there was a healthy supply of food where they currently were residing? In nature they appear to live and eat in one location until the food runs out. If they get cold they may crawl to the entrance of their burrow to warm up. When the food supply dries up they move along to the next spot. But they don't want to move away from a secure location with an adequate food supply. They will if the need to, but I doubt they WANT to. So, given the choice, would a snake choose a 4x2x2 or a FB70 with the exact same parameters (temps, hides, and food supply)?

In this video (@6:40), Clint from Clint's Reptiles says basically the same thing that you do above. On the other hand, I believe snakes instinctually seek freedom. In the wild, if a snake gets stuck in a 4x2x2 space, it won't live very long because no 4x2x2 space in the wild is going to meet a snake's needs for very long. So, in addition to it's basic physical needs, I think it's important to provide your snake with a sense of freedom. That's why open my snake's enclosure and give him the opportunity to roam almost every day.

[mds695]

In this video (@6:40), Clint from Clint's Reptiles says basically the same thing that you do above. On the other hand, I believe snakes instinctually seek freedom. In the wild, if a snake gets stuck in a 4x2x2 space, it won't live very long because no 4x2x2 space in the wild is going to meet a snake's needs for very long. So, in addition to its basic physical needs, I think it's important to provide your snake with a sense of freedom. That's why open my snake's enclosure and give him the opportunity to roam almost every day.

I don’t disagree with the sentiment. I would absolutely love to see mine move freely. I do disagree though that a snake seeks freedom. Ball pythons especially. I’d argue they seek security above all else.

[Bogertophis]

I don’t disagree with the sentiment. I would absolutely love to see mine move freely. I do disagree though that a snake seeks freedom. Ball pythons especially. I’d argue they seek security above all else.

Totally agree- we need to be careful not to assume that very different species (or even individual snakes) all want the same things. BPs use very different techniques to catch prey & survive than other snakes that actively hunt.

Comparing what a BP wants to what a Children's python wants is like comparing apples & oranges.

[Homebody]

Totally agree- we need to be careful not to assume that very different species (or even individual snakes) all want the same things. BPs use very different techniques to catch prey & survive than other snakes that actively hunt.

Comparing what a BP wants to what a Children's python wants is like comparing apples & oranges.

Oh, joy! A debate! So, you say that a ball python would choose security over freedom. If this is so, then why bother to lock the enclosure? I think we can all agree that a ball python is safer in its enclosure than out of it. If this is so, then the ball python should choose to remain there.

[mds695]

Oh, joy! A debate! So, you say that a ball python would choose security over freedom. If this is so, then why bother to lock the enclosure? I think we can all agree that a ball python is safer in its enclosure than out of it. If this is so, then the ball python should choose to remain there.

Healthy debate lol. I was actually going to say I bet I could leave my enclosure open and find her in the same spot the next morning. I take her out to clean, minute I set her near the enclosure afterwards straight back into the hide. I’d love to keep her out longer and let her roam. But she wants to be in her safe spot. Would some leave, probably. But you have to ask why? Where would they go? What are they looking for? As mentioned, they are ambush predators. They perch at the opening of their burrow and wait for prey to walk by. They don’t “hunt,” they’re fat and slow. They may leave to chase some tail. They may leave if they’re hungry. They may leave if they’re insecure. We address that by feeding regularly, providing optimal temperature, and including appropriately sized hides. I don’t think they have the conscious thought to “explore.” Everything they do is based around survival and reproduction, not recreation. If you are meeting those needs, I don’t think they’d want to leave.


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[Bogertophis]

...why bother to lock the enclosure? ...

Didn't you already try this?

[Homebody]

Didn't you already try this?

Yes and, contrary to my argument, my snake stayed put.