Proving out Dinkers. I need more information!

[Kod_Steph]

I’m looking to start trying to prove out dinkers for new morphs. I was wondering what’s the best way to do that? I tried looking on YouTube but no one really have an effective way or gives great information on the process or step by step. I know the basics. But i want more of an in depth lesson on the topic.

I already have a YellowBelly Female. Do you think this is a great way to start it or should i buy another snake to breed to a dinker.

*Looking to purchase an African import very soon!

[Erie_herps]

First understand that extremely few dinkers prove out. It's often a waste of money unless you enjoy it or see something extremely promising in the dinker (keep in mind that normals are extremely variable). Often it results in lots of hard to sell normals. To start, see if you can make it quicker, if you think it's likely in a complex with something else (because it shows the characteristics; eg. Spotnose, YB/Super Stripe) pair it with a morph in that complex. Dinkers will prove out faster if they are male because you can breed a male to multiple females. Pair the snake with a suspected complex single-gene snake. Then, breed the offspring to each other or back to a parent (multiple pairings will increase the chance of finding it if it's a low-expression inc-dom trait), you could also pair one to another suspected complex morph (likely a different complex). If the next offspring still don't show anything hopeful then you can assume the desired trait isn't genetic and it didn't prove out. If it does show something promising then keep experimenting and making combos, these combos with the morphs should look much different than the combo without.

[nikkubus]

Almost missed this one because of the section it's in.

I'm going to give advice that applies to anyone thinking about this, but this is not something I would attempt at the stage you are at as a first time breeder, absolutely forget about doing it right now and use the following as why not to.

Erie_Herps has good advice. To add to that, imports add on a whole extra layer of complexity with having to deal with more likely parasites and hatchlings that are not well started and go through a more extreme trip and not always the most gentle humans. If you don't have solid experience with dealing with parasites, getting hatchlings to eat, and breeding as it is, this is not a project I would take on. HUGE time and money sink, high risk, low chance for success. I'm saying this as someone who has some and has dumped a load of time and money in myself, not just on one Dinker import, but several, and there were casualties because of African parasites. "Farm Raised" or "Captive Hatch" direct from Africa, or through a person who is flipping them fresh after receiving them is nowhere near the same thing as Captive Born and Bred. Be prepared to get testing done at the vets, and absolutely MUST quarantine from your existing collection even more so than a normal purchase.

If you don't already have a very established name as a breeder, the next thing you are going to need is a wholesaler you can offload normals to because they are not going to sell for you and you are going to produce A LOT trying to prove something out that you have no idea about. Plan on basically giving them away because the prices wholesalers give for normals is very low and barely covers shipping to them. If this is at all an ethical concern for you, this is not the project for you, turn back now.

If I haven't said enough to scare you away from wanting to do this, the advice Erie_Herps gives is perfect for how to go about figuring out the genetics unless it's something that involves multiple genes or linkage. It will cover 99% of situations where it's incomplete dominant or recessive. Anything else is going to be a complex subject of it's own that is beyond the scope of attempting without an advanced understanding of genetics.

I'm not trying to say nobody should ever try to prove out dinkers, if they pop up in your lines, that's a much easier thing to deal with than imports because you don't have the same problems with disease and stress, but you still are going to produce a lot of normals that need to find homes. If you are going to do it, having a realistic idea of the challenges you face will make it a lot less painful is all.

[JoeNapoli]

nikkubus gives good advice earned the hard way.

Some more info in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM79deuK0VA

Lastly, in regards to offloading normals, if you live in or near a metro area and are willing to vend at expos you can sell most or even all of your normal hatchlings for at least $20 each, more for females and/or those that look a bit aberrant. Calculate your overhead, figure ~$100 per 6' table + cost of deli cups (fifty 12oz Pre-Punched Cup ~$10) + cost of gas to/from, etc.

[nikkubus]

Lastly, in regards to offloading normals, if you live in or near a metro area and are willing to vend at expos you can sell most or even all of your normal hatchlings for at least $20 each, more for females and/or those that look a bit aberrant. Calculate your overhead, figure ~$100 per 6' table + cost of deli cups (fifty 12oz Pre-Punched Cup ~$10) + cost of gas to/from, etc.

That can be a great way in some areas. I tend to forget this for small/beginning hobby breeders because in CA the barrier to entry is insane because you need a CA business licence to vend at shows and that requires a bare minimum of $600 in taxes and fees before you have made a cent of profit, and that's before the cost of the table. If you live somewhere a little more hospitable for small business, definitely worth giving that a shot if you have enough animals to sell at once.

[Armiyana]

Thank you for reminding me I need to look into getting a business license for myself before the end of the year. @_@

[Kod_Steph]

Thanks for the info guys. I really appreciate it. But ik the risk and I’m willing to take it. You have people so far along in the BP breeding and figuring out new combos. I’m trying to find my own lane. Not too many people are doing it. I have experience with ball pythons and breeding. I took some time off from the hobby because of college but now I’m back into it and i want to do more than creating the same combos that multiple people have already created. For me it’s not about the money really. It’s the excitement and willing to challenge myself. If i prove them out cool! great! If i don’t it was worth the try and experience. You guys trying to “scare me away” doesn’t do anything but make me want to do it even more. Thanks again for the information!! I appreciate it🙏🏾

[nikkubus]

I’m trying to find my own lane. Not too many people are doing it.

There are a lot of people doing it, just very few that are successful and many being forced to give up before they get any ground because they ran out of space/time/money/etc. Not to mention all the people who think they are proving out something new and it's just an already existing morph.

[Snow Balls]

That can be a great way in some areas. I tend to forget this for small/beginning hobby breeders because in CA the barrier to entry is insane because you need a CA business licence to vend at shows and that requires a bare minimum of $600 in taxes and fees before you have made a cent of profit, and that's before the cost of the table. If you live somewhere a little more hospitable for small business, definitely worth giving that a shot if you have enough animals to sell at once.

Thank you for reminding me how much California sucks

[paulh]

This thread has generated plenty of warnings but little about the genetics aspects. Basically breed dinker to one or several normals and see what the first generation looks like. Then mate sibs, possibly do backcrosses and see what all those babies look like. Takes time.

Link to a genetics booklet for pigeon breeders: www.ringneckdove.com. Go to the Contents page, find the pigeons section (bottom of left column) and click on #4, Project on Genetics booklet. That will download the booklet. The info on pp 10-17 is good for most species, not just pigeons.

Good luck.