First time Breeding - A couple questions!

[femmefalconer]

Hi everyone!

Haven’t posted here in some time, but I love this community and had a few questions for you all.

I am pairing my 2000g female pastave to my 900g super pastel butter yb desert ghost male. The male is proven, the female has never been bred.

About 3 weeks ago I introduced the male and got a lock (I was watching with a camera). Both ate a few days later after I removed the male once they were done. I then re-introduced them last weekend, they locked, and again they both ate a few days later.

I have NO idea how to palpate for follicles, so I hadn’t been doing that. I’m so terrified that I missed an important breeding window for the female whilst trying to get my male up to size. My understanding (of which I am prepared to be completely wrong about/ignorant of) is that throughout the fall/winter the female will begin building follicles and go through a period of ovulation. Assuming the female was not bred, she will eventually absorb those follicles as usual. If mating has occurred prior to ovulation (or post?) then you may get eggs. I’m confused about this.

How will I know if I have missed this “window?” Beyond not getting eggs of course. Would the snakes not lock, and the female/male just not be interested? Or would they lock anyway, and it’s no indicator of hope?

In the future I will start pairing earlier. I have a new rack for hatchlings/juveniles and am setting up an incubator.

I just wanted to get these details straightened out, as believe it or not I haven’t been able to find this information elsewhere.

You guys are the best, thanks in advance!


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[Erie_herps]

If you know someone with an ultrasound that would give you the best information. Other than that have you noticed any ovulation behaviors (bowl wrapping, cool seeking, feeding changes, etc.)? If not she likely hasn't ovulated yet.

[nikkubus]

Not every female follows the normal calendar so it's not a hard rule, but generally you still have plenty of time and you started at the correct time. Late Dec and Jan pairings are mostly a warm up, and the most important window is more late Feb - early March. I'd aim for a lock per month until you have signs you are past the window. The signs you are past it are going to be larger than a quarter size follicles if you palpate or ultrasound, locks no longer happening, and ovulation. Fasting can sometimes help understand where they are in the cycle, but its a lot rougher of an estimate. I have females who start fasting long before the window ends, and females who don't fast until right before ovulation. Once the breeding window closes, there is still a gap before ovulation, and ovulation is the point where either the eggs get fertilized and will be laid, or they get reabsorbed.

Palpating takes practice. Watch some videos on it to get some idea of what you are supposed to do. I like to feel them as they are going back into their tub, and I will redo it if they tense up too much at the point where the follicles are.

[femmefalconer]

If you know someone with an ultrasound that would give you the best information. Other than that have you noticed any ovulation behaviors (bowl wrapping, cool seeking, feeding changes, etc.)? If not she likely hasn't ovulated yet.

She normally fasts starting around October, which she did again this year. So she went 2.5 months without eating (she gets a medium rat weekly). She started eating again in December to my surprise (often it goes until March or even April), and has been acting ravenous. She spends equal time on the hot and cool sides so it’s hard to say. Unfortunately I don’t know anyone with an ultrasound.


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[femmefalconer]

Not every female follows the normal calendar so it's not a hard rule, but generally you still have plenty of time and you started at the correct time. Late Dec and Jan pairings are mostly a warm up, and the most important window is more late Feb - early March. I'd aim for a lock per month until you have signs you are past the window. The signs you are past it are going to be larger than a quarter size follicles if you palpate or ultrasound, locks no longer happening, and ovulation. Fasting can sometimes help understand where they are in the cycle, but its a lot rougher of an estimate. I have females who start fasting long before the window ends, and females who don't fast until right before ovulation. Once the breeding window closes, there is still a gap before ovulation, and ovulation is the point where either the eggs get fertilized and will be laid, or they get reabsorbed.

Palpating takes practice. Watch some videos on it to get some idea of what you are supposed to do. I like to feel them as they are going back into their tub, and I will redo it if they tense up too much at the point where the follicles are.

Interesting - so is it fair to say that I wouldn’t have seen locks if I was past the breeding window? And I’ll try to practice palpating some more on my own.

She normally fasts around October and it lasts a really long time - like through March. She did it this time too, but randomly ate in mid December, so I started offering food again. Since she’s been paired twice, she’s actually become more ravenous than I’ve ever seen her. Another thing to note is that right now I have 4 of my BP’s in PVC cages that are stacked, and she likes to lay out vertically by the air vents which are next to the male’s (who does the same thing). A year ago she was the only snake I had. I do have a rack now as well for hatchlings and subadults. I’m just not sure why she would go off feed and then start eating again much earlier than usual - and certainly much more voraciously. She’s usually a picky snake and takes forever to strike.


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[nikkubus]

Yeah normally they won't lock after the window, they will before (which they can retain sometimes). Sometimes they will keep locking after but it's rare.

[femmefalconer]

Well that gives me some hope. I’ll pair them again in February and March and will just keep offering food unless she says otherwise. And will keep my eyes peeled for signs of ovulation moving forward. From what I’ve read, it should be hard to miss (cool-seeking, bowl-wrapping, swelling, glowing, from what I understand).

If quarter-sized follicles are too big, hopefully they’re still small right now and I can palpate and try to get a good idea tomorrow. I guess worst case scenario, maybe a vet could do it?


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[nikkubus]

Usually it's hard to miss, but sometimes the more dramatic part can happen when you haven't checked on her in a while and so by the time you see, it's less obvious.

Here is this to help have a visual with a timeline:


You can still get one last lock in at quarter size sometimes, but after that not going to do much good. A vet may be able to palp (or ultrasound for $$$), but honestly I'd just keep trying till you get good at it. Just takes practice. I wouldn't do it every single day, but a couple times a week shouldn't hurt till you are getting the feel for it. If you happen to know of any breeders local to you, they would probably be willing to give you an in person tutorial to help you. I started breeding with colubrids, which are far easier to palp in my opinion, so by the time I started breeding BPs, I at least had some clue of what I was doing. If you get that chance, also might be a good time to learn how to pop sex hatchlings if you haven't learned that either! In all likelihood they are nearing nickel size right about now, which is when they start getting a lot easier to feel anyways. Also reminder ahead of time, like the picture states, right around ovy they start getting a lot softer and get much harder to feel, so don't freak out if you feel them one day and then can't anymore - perfectly normal at that stage.

Other than that, try not to get too worked up and worried. I remember what its like and you want to do every little thing right, but if you relax, in all likelihood you are going to be in a better frame of mind to notice things and learn anyway. Observe things, take notes and pictures, and if for whatever reason it doesn't work this year, next year you are starting fresh with a little more experience. Doubly so for incubation.

[Albert Clark]

Consider using the forum search engine also to gather more detailed information on breeding.

[femmefalconer]

Consider using the forum search engine also to gather more detailed information on breeding.

I think I’ve looked at about 2 years worth from the breeding forum at least! Lol.

Unfortunately she hasn’t been hanging out much on the cool side of her enclosure like she used to months ago. Hasn’t been bowl wrapping or anything like that. Before locking again last week, she shed, is eating like crazy again (medium rat weekly, normally goes on a winter hunger strike this time of year). Now she’s in her hot hide at 90, at least during the day. Hopefully I can learn how to palpate… I’d hate to have missed out on her this year for my first ever attempt.


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