Padawan Breeder Questions

[Malum Argenteum]

It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known.

I say this after having done a bit of poking around -- there's more info on these than I would have guessed. I see the link to the unnamed breeder you mention, and before that there's a famous name who imported them from the UK in 2006, from Paul Harris (whether that's the same line as yours would be interesting to know). He would know how and when they got to the UK.

[Malum Argenteum]

I think I got it. Those Paul Harris-produced snakes sent to that famous Morelia breeder (Inland -- this is public knowledge, as there is lineage on his website) were produced in 2007 in the UK from a 2000 pair of Rockhamptons bred in Germany. There were spilota imported to the US from UK in 2006, and then a handful most years during the 2010s, so it could have come in on one of those imports.

There were no spilota imported from Germany to the UK ever, so that's the end of the legal trail. Since the records prior to that are for zoo-permitted animals, it is a bit surprising that that transfer wouldn't be on record, unless those weren't zoo animals. It is no secret that Germany is a smuggling hub.

There are a handful of carpet localities, it looks like, and not enough possible permitted imports to go around.

Anyway, hope this is useful information to you or someone. It was fun to hunt up.

[YungRasputin]

It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known. So, it is simply a matter of talking to people and tracing back until one finds a permitted export from Australia, or not.

Where certain lines came from and whose hands they passed through would be interesting to know in any event.

i’m not saying that it *can’t* be known just that i personally didn’t know this and without doing some sleuthing and contacting each breeder down the chain i wouldn’t have known how to figure all that like you - all of this has been most interesting and i do believe you are correct - my previous comments were mainly just to say what i know/knew and to be clear that i am not involved in some covert smuggling op tho i recognize the origins of this locality within the US may be a bit dodgy

i see myself in this situation moreso like Snake Discovery - they breed womas, womas wouldn’t exist in the US hobby without smuggling however Snake Discovery was/is not personally involved in this and are probably, like me, several years removed from all of that

[Malum Argenteum]

I didn't think for a second you were involved in anything nefarious. I apologize if I said anything that gave that impression.

After yet more consideration, I'm not sure that there would be a permit for a transfer from Germany to the UK. EU wildlife trade regulations are pretty complicated, but there is some internal free trade allowed. I'll bet Paul Harris could clear up that link. It might actually be worth knowing the link -- the lineage back to source would be a great thing to be able to provide for buyers of your offspring.

I hope you end up finding out enough to figure out your outcrossing situation, too.

[jmcrook]

Basically any animal we have in the US that is native to Australia was smuggled out of AU at some point historically. I'd highly recommend reading "Stolen World" for a look into the history of herpetoculture, both good and bad.

All of the US population of Rockhampton carpets traces back to a 1.1 founder pair in Germany produced by Volker Franz in 2000. Nick Mutton imported the original stock we have here in the states in ~2007. He, Michael Pennell and one other individual divided that original group and were the first in the US to have and produce this locality. Though I am not certain I'd venture to guess the founder pair are siblings/clutchmates. A 2-3hrs phone call to Nick would almost certainly provide clarification.

Unfortunately, unless AU changes its animal export laws in our lifetimes, we'll never have any other bloodlines to outcross pure locality Rockhamptons to or many other projects like my Brisbane coastals which are the only confidently pure M.s.mcdowelli in the US. They also trace back to a 1.1 founder pair which are likely clutchmates. I selected my pair from as distant sources as was possible for their hatch years (2018 and 2019) and they are first cousins.

All of the Tarahumara boas we have in the US trace back to similarly small groups of 1.1 founder animals. Though in the case of the Tarahumaras the founders were WC animals and stand a better chance of being at least slightly less related in theory.

The ethics, moral obligations, and biological outcomes of maintaining localities/species tracing back to such genetically limited founder stock is an interesting topic of discussion that deserves more air time that it currently receives in my opinion.

[YungRasputin]

ok so i have another question - it’s related to T+ Albinos and so on - would it be possible to produce visual T+ albinos from [T+ albino x Regular albino] pairing? was curious if this was only possible with a [T+ albino x T+ albino] pairing or if the genes of the normal albino would be enough since they’re all albinos?

[Malum Argenteum]

What species is this question in reference to?

[YungRasputin]

what species is this question in reference to?

bci or “Northern boas” which is my new fav common name for them lol

[Malum Argenteum]

I don't breed boas, but it looks like Kahl T- and VPI T+ aren't compatible, so Kahl x VPI will yield all double hets.

Apparently another T+ is 'Paradigm' -- Sharp albino x BWC hypo (a rare case of codominance). Since Kahl and Sharp aren't compatible, breeding a visual Paradigm to a visual Kahl would yield 50% het Kahl het Sharp and 50% het Kahl het BWC.

This is all based on info from boamorph and the morphpedia. Someone knows this stuff off the top of their head, I'm sure. Some people can even keep track of ball python morphs, I've heard, so anything is possible.

[plateOfFlan]

Just from poking around on morphmarket, albino lines in boas seem really complicated, to my eyes at least it looks like "hets" make significant changes to color and pattern, and combinations of hets are sometimes treated like their own "morph" (like paradigm!). A boa can be het for multiple kinds of incompatible albino and still have normal amounts of melanin but the colors and contrast seem to be punched up more in many cases.